Azores KM 5 & 6 [solved]

Hello,

if you search for Azores KM 6 you will find 2 coins

KM 6 for Azores is 75 Reis - https://numismaster.com/MC_11428

Second coin in Krause catalogue is under Terceira Island - https://numismaster.com/MC_9276

EDIT 

same is true for KM 5

No coins for Terceira Island under KM 1-4 in Numista yet.

There are 13 coins for Terceira island in Krause catalogue https://numismaster.com/?id=-10012282&advancedsearch=true&pageno=1

Should we do something with it in Numista? Introduce new issuer maybe? 

Probably should be sub-issuer.  Portugal › Azores › Terceira Island

These coins were issued in a period of great political instability and civil war in which there were three kings whose reigns overlapped:
Pedro IV (1826-1828), former Emperor Pedro I of Brazil
Michael I (1828-1834)
Maria II (1834-1853), but considered Queen since 1826, when her father Pedro IV abdicated in her favor, putting the country into civil war.
During this civil war, in 1830, and before she was officially declared queen, two coins of V and X Réis were issued in London, destined to circulate in mainland Portugal. By Permit of the Regency of 28FEB1831 they were authorized to circulate in the Azores with twice the face value.
I have the Krausse catalog and I can't find them either in the Azores or in mainland Portugal. I therefore do not know where was obtained the KM5 and KM6 with which they are identified on our pages.
 

I'm currently doing a complete review of the Portuguese catalogs but I haven't made it to the Azores yet. I will study this subject further when I get to the Azores pages. 

Meanwhile, I propose that the references KM5 and KM6 for the V and X réis be deleted, leaving the coins with only the references Gomes#M2 01 and M2 02.
 

There are no coins issued for Ilha Terceira/Azores in Portuguese catalogs, nor am I aware of any legislation authorizing such issues.

In the Standard Catalog of World Coins 1801-1900 8th Edition, there is, under Azores, a section where Terceira Island comes out, and under this issuer there are 3 coins (KM# 4.1, 4.2, 5 and 6) and some Pattern coins (Pn #1 to Pn#8) 

Even, at KM#4.1 and 4.2 you can read on the reverse of the coin "ILHA TERCEIRA UTULITATI PUBLICÆ"

N#35423

I don't know if it is a mistake to catalog these coins under this issuer, but the KM numbers exist.

monge

Meanwhile, I propose that the references KM5 and KM6 for the V and X réis be deleted, leaving the coins with only the references Gomes#M2 01 and M2 02.

Removing valid KM numbers will cause more confusion.

The problem is that KM numbers are only unique within a country as defined by Krause. Issues arise whenever Numista and Krause/SCWC/Numismaster have different splits.

For example: N#139444

Listed under Prussia by Numista but Silesia by Krause. If you search “Prussia 1053” in Numismaster you won't find anything, but searching for “Silesia 1053” will find it. It should be specified as “KM(Silesia)# 1053” in Numista.

I will mark it as started as referee noted he will check this. 

The Krausse catalogue is a generalist catalogue, based on the specialized catalogues of each country.  Sometimes they "invent" something and they don't always get it right.  This is the case, as coins have never been issued exclusively for Terceira Island.

It turns out that Terceira, not being the largest or most important island in the archipelago, is the best fortified and has the best natural defence conditions against an attack from the sea.

It was therefore used, on two occasions, as a base of operations and provisional capital of the Kingdom. On both occasions, coins have been issued. As there was no mint house or coin minters, goldsmiths, smelters and other personnel were hired from a population where there were no professionals used to minting coins. Hence the rough-looking 80 Réis coin, obtained by casting church bells.

The two periods in which the city of Angra was the second capital of the kingdom:

1581/1583 by King D. António I while the Spanish King, D. Filipe I, ruled in Lisbon.

1828-1834, King D. Miguel ruling in Lisbon and, in Angra, a Council of Regency in the name of Queen D. Maria II (she was 9 years old in 1828).

Let's go back to the coins in question, "V" and "X" Réis with date1830.  They were minted in London and destined for mainland Portugal. By Permit of 28FEB1831 from the Council of Regency they were put into circulation in the Azores.

There is a lot of monetary legislation from 1828 to 1834. Most of this legislation is issued from the Government Palace in Angra (Terceira Island), but there is also legislation issued from the Government Palace in Ponta Delgada (São Miguel Island, currently the capital of the Azores).

IN CONCLUSION:

All the coins that Krausse considers to be exclusive to Terceira Island are actually coins issued for the entire Azores archipelago.

WHAT TO DO?

As we do not believe we can convince the editors of the Krausse catalogue to change it, we will leave everything as it is and add a note in the comments of each coin summarizing what was said above.

Thank you very much for your explanation and for your search, it always goes well know something more about coins. I think the solution is also perfect.