Maltese Scudo

Does anyone else own one of these, or coins of the same currency? (Picciolo (Piccioli), Grano (Grani), Cinquina (?), Carlino (?), Tari (Tari), Scudo (Scudi))

From what I can work out, this is how the currency works:

6 Piccioli = 1 Grano

30 Piccioli = 5 Grani = 1 Cinquina

60 Piccioli = 10 Grani = 2 Cinquina = 1 Carlino

120 Piccioli = 20 Grani = 4 Cinquina = 2 Carlino = 1 Tari

1440 Piccioli = 240 Grani = 48 Cinquina = 24 Carlino = 12 Tari = 1 Scudo

If I'm wrong and you know otherwise to be true, please feel free to let me know =]

My source for working out what I have is:
http://www.emmsaid.com/monetary_system.htm

I was just interested to see how many of you have coins of these types and how common/rare they actually are... I've added the Maltese Scudo to the coin database and added a picture of my own (quite worn) coin. if anyone has a better example please feel free to replace mine =]

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces15808.html

Hi there, transferred your Scudo to Malta with new currency Scudo in it. In case you wonder why it is no longer as "Malta Order of the holy..." in the list   

Hi, thank you =]

I noticed that most other currencies have a date range of when they were used, but I don't know how or if I am able to add that. The information I can find about this currency is very limited =/ but this website might be quite useful for more information.

http://www.kmfap.net/index.php?topic_id=70

It says that the first coins minted by the Knights of Malta appear to have been minted in 1534. It also says that they ruled in Malta for 268 years. So I'd guess at a date range of 1534 - 1802. But I know too little about it to say for sure.

If you know any place to find more information then I'd love to know about it. Thanks =]

hi

maltese coins here

http://www.coinarchives.com/w/results.php?search=malt&s=0&results=100

bye

and here too

http://www.rondomons.nl/index.php?page=coins&pid=221

when you choose "other"- you could try typing
Scudo (1532 - 1802)
it should then add a currency named "Malta - Scudo (1532 - 1802)" doesn't it.
The clue is to go into the coin sheet, select a country and save it. go back and enter the above
without "Malta" up front. It will be added automatically then.

Charlie,
  The coins denominated 'Scudi' & 'Tari' are actually of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta,which needs to be listed separately from Malta,as there is really no connection between the pre-1798 currency system & the 1972-2007 Pounds,Cents,& Mils decimal currency system of the Dominion of Malta (1972-74) & the Republic of Malta (1975-2007).

The Sovereign Military Order of Malta still puts out commemorative medal-coins denominated in Scudi & Tari,but these are struck at the S.M.O.M.'s mint in Rome.

Aidan.

Quote: BCNumismaticsThe coins denominated 'Scudi' & 'Tari' are actually of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta,which needs to be listed separately from Malta

I don't understand. Are you trying to say add a new country to list it under? Because I don't think that would be right. It's still Malta, it's just a currency from an earlier period in the country's history. Surely it doesn't have to have any relation to the newer currencies of Malta to be listed as a dead Maltese currency (as it currently is).

If I have misunderstood your intentions, do try and explain your point further =]

The currency has changed, but the country hasn't changes: The Sovereign Order of Malta governed the same island as the one which uses Maltese lira today. So there is no reason to create another country in the country list.
The current commemorative medal of the Order of Malta are another thing.

Ah, I think Xavier explained my point a bit better than I did xD
Thanks =]

Quote: XavierThe currency has changed, but the country hasn't changes: The Sovereign Order of Malta governed the same island as the one which uses Maltese lira today. So there is no reason to create another country in the country list.
The current commemorative medal of the Order of Malta are another thing.

Xavier,
  The Sovereign Military Order of Malta still exists as an independently recognised organisation,even though Napoleon Bonaparte had them expelled from Malta in 1798.

The current medal-coin issues are the successors of the pre-1798 coins,& besides,the pre-1798 coins are also listed under 'Sovereign Military Order of Malta' in Krause like the post-1961 medal-coins are.That is why they need to be listed separately under this name.

Have a read here; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta .

By the way,Malta changed over from the Maltese Pound to the Euro on the 1st. of January 2008.Cyprus also changed over to the Euro on the same date as well.

Aidan.

if listed separately... it would be nice to have them together nevertheless.
like :
Malta
Malta (Sovereign Order)
 

Quote: Makake77if listed separately... it would be nice to have them together nevertheless.
like :
Malta
Malta (Sovereign Order)
 

That does not make sense at all.The modern medal-coins of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta are listed in either 'O' or 'S' in Krause's 'Unusual World Coins'.I think that listing them under 'S' makes perfect sense.

Aidan.

with due respect - I disagree   

It makes sense to have countries listed like they are in the catalogs.
However: someone reading a legend of that coin will look for malta - and not sovereign bla bla...
and then add a coin in the list of Malta - where it does not belong. people tend to take the most
convenient way which often create more errors for the database. I don't want to say that some users
act mindlessly or ignorant. It's just that they don't know or it pleases them to have their coin listed somewhere where they might find it back - because they'll look first way under listing "Malta", not
something else.
It's the same as the discussion about "Principality of Hutt River". Despite that is the correct and full name
it does not help us and creates irritation. Not to mention that is more useful to have countries listed
near together that share common boundaries and/or history. Like that is a fact for the "germanys" for
example. How would you like it if you would have to search for "Federal Republic of Germany" under "F", then "Democratic Republic of Germany" under "D" and "German Reich" under "G"? WC yet decided to
list them as "Germany, Weimar Republic" and "Germany, Third Reich" and whatnot.
If they had Malta and the Sovereign order of malta listed in one catalog (because they overlap in the time
period the catalog features) they would have done the same. But it isn't. So that does not really
count as an argument I think

Quote: Makake77with due respect - I disagree   

It makes sense to have countries listed like they are in the catalogs.
However: someone reading a legend of that coin will look for malta - and not sovereign bla bla...
and then add a coin in the list of Malta - where it does not belong. people tend to take the most
convenient way which often create more errors for the database. I don't want to say that some users
act mindlessly or ignorant. It's just that they don't know or it pleases them to have their coin listed somewhere where they might find it back - because they'll look first way under listing "Malta", not
something else.
It's the same as the discussion about "Principality of Hutt River". Despite that is the correct and full name
it does not help us and creates irritation. Not to mention that is more useful to have countries listed
near together that share common boundaries and/or history. Like that is a fact for the "germanys" for
example. How would you like it if you would have to search for "Federal Republic of Germany" under "F", then "Democratic Republic of Germany" under "D" and "German Reich" under "G"? WC yet decided to
list them as "Germany, Weimar Republic" and "Germany, Third Reich" and whatnot.
If they had Malta and the Sovereign order of malta listed in one catalog (because they overlap in the time
period the catalog features) they would have done the same. But it isn't. So that does not really
count as an argument I think

I agree with Makake.  

If this Maltese coin were mine, and I didn't know better, I'd look under "M" for Malta first.  

Technically, Jordan should be under "H" for Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, and San Marino should be under "M" for Most Serene Republic of San Marino.  Would you think to look there?

If a coin's entry is not in an obvious place, then users are less likely to find the coin's entry and are more likely to create a new (duplicate) entry in the obvious location.  Since he is a Numista admin, I'm sure Makake has had to undo many erroneous mistakes like these, and I think he has a good idea of how these mistakes are made.

The duplicate coin entry is a bigger problem than accuracy of country names, and duplicate entries are worth avoiding.  If the decision is between technical pedantry and database maintainance, I'm going to side with database maintainance.

thank you. it's indeed a maintenance problem.
we try to balance aethestics and usability.

The Sovereign Military Order of Malta has observer status in the United Nations under that name,as the Grand Master is in effect,a reigning monarch.

Krause's 'Unusual World Coins' lists the modern medal-coins under 'S' for 'Sovereign'.As for the language that they are inscribed in - it is Italian.

Have a read here; http://www.orderofmalta.org/english ,as it contains answers to commonly asked questions.

Aidan.

QuoteThe Sovereign Military Order of Malta has observer status in the United Nations under that name,as the Grand Master is in effect,a reigning monarch.

I don't doubt that. I think I made this point of view clear.
   as are all other states - as Democratic republic of... , Islamic republic of and so on...

Quote: Makake77

QuoteThe Sovereign Military Order of Malta has observer status in the United Nations under that name,as the Grand Master is in effect,a reigning monarch.

I don't doubt that. I think I made this point of view clear.
   as are all other states - as Democratic republic of... , Islamic republic of and so on...

The use of a long title in the names of countries still doesn't affect the use of common names in English.

The Sovereign Military Order of Malta has neither a short title or a long title for its name - in either English or Italian.Its name is the only recognised name.

Aidan.

Problem is, "The Sovereign Military Order of Malta" is not a country and never was. It was simply a name for a group of people that ruled over various places in Europe.

They moved from place to place, including Jerusalem, Rhodes and eventually, Malta.

These coins were minted in Malta, to be used in Malta, while the Order ruled in Malta. Therefore, the country I believe they belong under, is Malta.

Here's a couple of useful and interesting links =]

http://www.knightsofmalta.com/history/history.html

http://www.kmfap.net/index.php?topic_id=70

we talking different ways here. As mentioned - it is to our / Numista's best if we would keep this
plausible and transparent. I won't doubt that this group has the name mentioned by Aidan.
But it messes things up - or it has a lot of potential to do so. So I would suggest using something
like "Malta - Sovereign Order of" or "Malta (Sovereign Order of Malta)" if we separate these at all.
It is still Xavier's decision to do that or let both be incorporated into "Malta".

Here is what I think is the best way to handle coins from the Sovereign Order of Malta, and this will be applied:
- coins struck from 1530 to 1798 will be classified under "Malta", because they were minted in Malta and meant to be used in Malta
- coins struck from 1961 will be classified under a new section.

Quote: http://www.orderofmalta.org/history/671/names-of-the-order/?lang=enThe official name of the Order of Malta is the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta. Abbreviations of the name – Sovereign Military Order of Malta, Sovereign Order of Malta, or Order of Malta – are often used for legal, diplomatic or communication purposes.

I choose the shortest form, with an inversion of the words due to the alphabetical ordering: Malta, Order of.

Quote: Makake77we talking different ways here. As mentioned - it is to our / Numista's best if we would keep this
plausible and transparent. I won't doubt that this group has the name mentioned by Aidan.
But it messes things up - or it has a lot of potential to do so. So I would suggest using something
like "Malta - Sovereign Order of" or "Malta (Sovereign Order of Malta)" if we separate these at all.
It is still Xavier's decision to do that or let both be incorporated into "Malta".

I still reckon that it should be listed under 'Sovereign Military Order of Malta',which is what they are listed under in the 18th. Century Krause & in Krause's 'Unusual World Coins'.

The S.M.O.M. may be a group,but it is a group that owns some territory - in Rome!

Aidan.