Every night, overnight and like mushrooms, sprout the new topics of members looking to clean and destroy a coin. Most have never done it and are oblivious to the damage they are about to cause. Some of these individuals have just become the proud new owners of an historical artifact, that most serious coin collectors would maim for. They are here looking for advice on how to scratch the item, discolour the item, strip it of a hard earned vintage patina and make it as shiny as dog testicles (old Polish saying, I cleaned it up ). That wrong advice flows abundantly and is rarely contested. There is a huge lack of visual evidence to counter the spread of this destructive behaviour. Let's cure just a handful, of this cleaning disease.
I invite all of you to add any photo or any link you may find, which shows valuable coins that have been scratched, discoloured or somehow damaged by cleaning. There is no excuse for cleaning legible coins.
Quote: torontokubaEvery night, overnight and like mushrooms, sprout the new topics of members looking to clean and destroy a coin. Most have never done it and are oblivious to the damage they are about to cause. Some of these individuals have just become the proud new owners of an historical artifact, that most serious coin collectors would maim for. They are here looking for advice on how to scratch the item, discolour the item, strip it of a hard earned vintage patina and make it as shiny as dog testicles (old Polish saying, I cleaned it up ). That wrong advice flows abundantly and is rarely contested. There is a huge lack of visual evidence to counter the spread of this destructive behaviour. Let's cure just a handful, of this cleaning disease.
I invite all of you to add any photo or any link you may find, which shows valuable coins that have been scratched, discoloured or somehow damaged by cleaning. There is no excuse for cleaning legible coins.
Dear god, that poor coin! Just the other day I saw a cleaned large cent for sale.
Quote: 15turtlesI havent seen any coin cleaned to that extent...
I see it all too often. There are people out there who believe SHINY is a grade on the Sheldon scale. They, obviously, have never looked at one of their cleaned masterpieces up close.
I have a few coins that look cleaned, but they would look absolutely beautiful after that piece of scrap metal. Where did you even get that hideous thing?
Catalogue referee for British, English and Scottish coins.
Le référent pour des pièces britannique, anglais et écossais.
Check this one out, I bought it from a seller on ebay. Their was only a reverse image which looked fine so I took the risk. I think the picture doesn't quite show how bad the coin really is.
I don't clean coins. I was just seeing if there was a way to stop the mean greeny from eating it. The mean greeny on copper is hard to take. But I will use soap and alcohol to remove oils and salt from your fingers and food. There is someting wrong with a shiny worn-out coin. I would like to get my Newfoundland cent stable. I know this is something that drives people nuts. Sorry for getting you mad.
yours daryl
Quote: manxcat12Where did you even get that hideous thing?
I just came across it at an auction, it's not mine.
Quote: ALLRED1950I know this is something that drives people nuts. Sorry for getting you mad.
Yes, shopping for my favourite coins got me started on this topic, because 90% to 95% of what I'm looking for seems to have been cleaned like silverware. Your topic was not the reason. That does not change the fact that too many people ask how to clean a coin, and are provided with responses that help destroy the coin.
Yes, I leave my verdigris coins as is or on the sidelines, while looking for an upgraded sample to add to my collection. Nobody seems to care that a copper turret roof is wearing out. I haven't seen one being cleaned from the verdigris. Why spend so much energy on making a coin look even worse than it already looks with the green stuff on it?
I got all happy when I found this one. It's a 1972 D US 50 cent coin. I thought I found one with out fg on it. But it's there - looks like someone at the mint clean the die badly.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
Kuba my dear fellow I do so admire your puritanical fervor on this issue and unlike most who decry cleaning you do indeed practice that which you preach.
I'm very much in the don't clean camp but with a few exceptions. Coins which are prone to verdigris if left alone can be completely destroyed, there is a judgement call to be made. As has already been mentioned, ancient coins can look quite appealing with a green hue, and if it hasn't eaten the coin in 2,000 years then you don't have to worry about it turning into a pile of green dust in your lifetime. However a large green scab on an otherwise beautiful Victorian bronze/copper is a serious detriment.
In my experience there are two types, or more accurately two states of verdigris. In it's chemically active stage it can destroy a coin. The first step ought to be taking a critical look at how you are storing your coins, as a Florida resident I know only too well the dangers of a sub tropical climate. You don't need a hermetically sealed safe room, just let your coins share your air conditioning. Put them in the garage or your attic for a year and they will suffer.
You can't remove verdigris. Well, stricly speaking you can but as it's a part of the coin you are going to end up with a small crater. You can however change it from being actively dangerous into it's inert and harmless state with one of the commercial products.
Rust is an even bigger problem, it doesn't have a "safe state". Once again, it's down to the environment which you or a previous owner stored the coin.
My position is pretty much anti-cleaning but pro-conservation.
Now before someone makes the obvious comment "well what's the difference" I'll explain.
Cleaning detracts from a coin's value and integrity but only if done incorrectly. You don't have to take my word for this ask the experts at NGC or PCGS. The don't body bag coin which have been cleaned, why would they when both companies have an affiliated company which conserves / cleans coins. They give the dreaded "details" grade to coins which have been INCORRECTLY cleaned. Don't believe me look at a few labels.
The case against destructive cleaning techniques is so perfectly illustrated by the coin in Kuba's original post that it ought to need no further comment, but being an awkward type of feller I'm going to make one anyway:
Whichever collector mutilated that coin wasn't aiming for that result, he did it with a lot of good intentions and even more ignorance expecting to improve it rather than destroy it. The problem isn't cleaning - it's a lack of knowledge. The coin collecting community has been the same for as long as I have been collecting. The great and the good tell the unwashed masses not to clean coins while actively doctoring their own stock.
With the possible exception of Kuba, there isn't anyone here who doesn't have a whole lot of cleaned coins in their prized collection. You may not recognise them but they are there.
For a long time silver coins were stored in clear plastic flips when not in albums, and because the exposed edges sometimes scratched the coins, a plasticiser was added and all was well until after a few years collectors started complaining that their coins have developed a white film. That's millions of coins and every one of them was subsequently cleaned. Older coin albums were made from paper with a very high sulphur content which caused coins to tone very rapidly. At that time toning was considered a flaw and so these coins were cleaned too and the albums thrown out. Ironically today patina is fashionable and the vintage albums are traded for hefty prices as aids to toning. You have ancients found by metal detectors.... what happened to the solid crust of grime do you think? You have a 100 year old silver coin in "blast white" condition, where is the 100 year's worth of patina?
The case against cleaning is over stated, it's always happened and it will continue to happen as long as coins are collected. By ignoring it and hoping it will go away we leave the door open for ignorance. The position that no coin should every be cleaned by anyone under any circumastances is admirable but flies in the face of reality.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
"hey-zeus", that's a lot to read. I'm going to grab a sentence from the beginning, a sentence from the end, comment on them and hope I got the gist.
Quote: pnightingaleCoins which are prone to verdigris if left alone can be completely destroyed...
Yes, in your climate, for sure.
Quote: pnightingaleBy ignoring it and hoping it will go away we leave the door open for ignorance. The position that no coin should every be cleaned by anyone under any circumastances is admirable but flies in the face of reality.
I do think it's a shame, but, I'm neither ignoring it nor expecting it to disappear. You call it ignorance, I call it reverse psychology. That's right, I want my coins to be unrealistically valuable one day, like the NGC and PCGS coins with luster, patina and no details grade. The rest of you, please resume your cleaning practices in order to help make that happen for me. Wait, darn, now I'm doing it backwards.
Quote: torontokuba"I do think it's a shame, but, I'm neither ignoring it nor expecting it to disappear. You call it ignorance, I call it reverse psychology. That's right, I want my coins to be unrealistically valuable one day, like the NGC and PCGS coins with luster, patina and no details grade. The rest of you, please resume your cleaning practices in order to help make that happen for me. Wait, darn, now I'm doing it backwards.
Ah, but here is where your plan falls down. Many of the coins graded by these charlatans have been cleaned, either by an experienced "coin doctor" or at their own hands!
I'm not sure if you are tilting at windmills or chasing the holy grail. Depends if you prefer Mallory or Cervantes I reckon. Either way I'm pretty confident that is is impossible to complete a substantial series without including coins which have been cleaned, not the blatantly whizzed types, I mean old light cleaning or very skillfully done modern efforts.
Am I wrong?
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Quote: pnightingale... impossible to complete a substantial series without including coins which have been cleaned, not the blatantly whizzed types, I mean old light cleaning or very skillfully done modern efforts.
Am I wrong?
As long as the original luster has not been stripped, the coins do not change colours on me over the years and I can't tell that they've been cleaned or wiped, I'm happy.
I do not know, I don't make attempts at completing series.
I think people already know I like dirty looking coins. If it looks unnatural for being a century or two old, I do not dwell on it and move on. I do spend quite a bit of time looking at coins close up (10x magnification, high res. photos, different light sources, different angles, etc.). Hopefully, I'm learning something along the way.
Don't even magnify mine I'm no grade whore if I like it and it looks good in hand that's all I'm bothered about only use magnification for varieties Etc
True ! I prefer a nice higher grade circulated coin and have never hidden this fact VF is a nice lever XF is great but I can still live with a good old F depending on what the wear is like, 9/10 times I would only look at my coin for a minute max so scrutinising every last detail doesn't really bother me. I really haven't got time for it above all else is the problem ha otherwise I would probably be anal about it ha !
I think the reason we see mutilated coins everywhere is because you can't find the good methods anywhere. Hell, even this site doesn't have this. It's no wonder everyone is using wrong methods, because they are the only readily available information. Meanwhile places like this site and others keep such esoteric information hidden while complaining about how the plebs destroy coins.
Quote: Heretic_CataI think the reason we see mutilated coins everywhere is because you can't find the good methods anywhere. Hell, even this site doesn't have this. It's no wonder everyone is using wrong methods, because they are the only readily available information. Meanwhile places like this site and others keep such esoteric information hidden while complaining about how the plebs destroy coins.
There is no method of cleaning that does not involve destroying the coin.
If all methods of cleaning destroyed coins there wouldn't be more than a handful left for us to collect.
Our heretic friend has it right, it's like the preacher condemning vice every Sunday morning who is out crawling the red light district every Saturday night. Almost every coin expert and professional will throw up his hands in fake horror at the thought of cleaning coins but has cleaned almost everything in his stock book. Of course he gives it a fancy name like conservation but it just good ole' cleaning like what us plebs do.
Actually the sins of the mighty are much greater. If Mr Nightingale "conserves" a coin he does so for his own satisfaction and only under very specific and rare cirumstances. When the mega coin dealer does it, he does it on a widespread scale and with the sole intention of turning a fast buck. If coin dealers are really opposed to coin cleaning why do they all carry coin cleaning products?
I believe the "cleaned coin" myth is a negotiating tool to justify paying you cents on the dollar for your better coins.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
take a look at my 1878 India rupee (pictured with a dollar of comapable date for comparison). Under NO circumstances is it acceptable do do this to silver coins. I'm sure you will all agree the natural toning of the dollar addds to it's beauty, the rupee looks redonkulous!
This is the overdipped, polished stuff you see on eBay being sold to the gullible as "blast white".
If you let me know which country the person responsible for defacing the image of our greatest monarch lives in I'll have a word with my old friend "Backdoor" Carruthers at the Foreign Office. See if we can't arrange for a couple of gunboats to sit off their coast shelling their capital city for a month or so.
Oh, wait... we don't do that any more. We're civilised now, so let's form a focus group and find out why people are so angry at us.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
What should an 80+ year old circulation coin look like?
Some people should really ask themselves, "Am I actually into coins, or do I just have an obsessive–compulsive cleaning disorder?". To go out and purchase various cleaning supplies, tools, chemicals, etc. and call yourself a coin collector, is something else. Whatever it is, I hope it is curable.
Here are some cleaned coins I purchased over the years and then quickly got rid of them in swaps. Of course, the auction photos never looked like this and I did not know I was buying a cleaned coin...
Quote: torontokubaHere are some cleaned coins I purchased over the years and then quickly got rid of them in swaps. Of course, the auction photos never looked like this and I did not know I was buying a cleaned coin...
Let's hope the ones you swapped with knew they were cleaned, then!
The coin shown on the bottom row (5 Lati) is now mine and after several months of exposure to the Florida sun and sea breeze the patina is almost fully restored. There is little or no sign of any cleaning.
It was fully disclosed to me by Torontokuba before negotiations even started that in his opinion it's surfaces were not original.
While I have no use for scoured coins where some enterprising coin doctor has been chiseling away with toothpick and toothbrush, I don't share the pedantic Polack's rigid views on cleaning. So, when he has a less than perfect coin, it may be entirely acceptable to me. I dislike dirty and unattractive coins, especially those corrosion prone zinc coins - he loves them. So we have a trading arrangement made in heaven and the basis for a long running argument. He loses of course but like the Polish lancers charging the German Panzers.... he just keeps on coming.
He is also my coin BFF and one of a dozen or so people I trust without hesitation.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Nice to see you, Phil. I think coin condition is important but I'm not that fussed if a coin has been cleaned. Cleaned badly is a worry and scratched is not a priority either.
They are here looking for advice on how to scratch the item, discolour the item, strip it of a hard earned vintage patina and make it as shiny as dog testicles (old Polish saying, I cleaned it up 
). That wrong advice flows abundantly and is rarely contested. There is a huge lack of visual evidence to counter the spread of this destructive behaviour. Let's cure just a handful, of this cleaning disease.
