World coins chat: Burgundian Netherlands

The Burgundian Netherlands refer to a number of duchies and counties in the Low Countries that were united by the House of Burgundy-Valois in 1382. It consisted of territories of the modern Netherlands (except Frisia), Belgium, Luxembourg and northern France. The Dukes of Burgundy also controlled large parts in Eastern France. Their states were officially subject to the Kingdom of France and the Holy Roman Empire.


The Burgundy Cross, used as the flag of the Burgundian Netherlands.

History
Most of Western Europe was united by Charlemagne in the Frankish Empire, but was later split into 3 states, of which one became France and another the Holy Roman Empire in 966. A feudal system developed were local nobility would take territories on loan from the emperor of king. These feudal states often acted independently.

The House of Burgundy-Valois, related to the French kings, acquired many territories through marriage and conquest, which one can looked at as the feudal version of mergers and acquisitions. Philip the Bold was the first Duke of Burgundy to rule over estates in Eastern France and most of the Low Countries and moved the capital to Brussels.

The most important states within the Burgundian Netherlands were:
- County of Holland
- Bishopric of Utrecht
- Duchy of Guelders
- Duchy of Brabant
- County of Flanders
- Duchy of Limburg
- Duchy of Luxembourg
- County of Hainault
- County of Namur
- County of Artois


Map of the territories controlled by the House of Burgundy-Valois. The northern territories were the Burgundian Netherlands. The southern were the original French territories of Burgundy and its neighbours.

Legacy
The Burgundian Netherlands were spread over both the French Kingdom and the Holy Roman Empire, and also across the language border between French and Germanic languages. Its centralised structure loosened Dutch ties with other German states and marked the start of a clearly separate history of The Low Countries. Flanders was economically one of the strongest in Europe. The Dutch revolt that started in 1568 and Spanish reconquest of Flanders in 1584 would end that dominance and move the financial center up north to Holland.

Habsburg Netherlands
The Burgundian Dynasty passed to Habsburg when Mary of Burgundy married Archduke Maximilian of Austria in 1477. She passed way in 1482, with her son Philip the Handsome becoming the first Habsburg ruler of the Netherlands. He in turn married Joanna of Castile in 1496, with their son Charles V becoming the first Habsburg King of Spain. By these marriages the Habsburgs became the most powerful family in Europe.

Currency
The states of the Burgundian Netherlands minted their own coins, mostly based on the Flemish Pound. This monetary system originated from the one imposed by Charlemagne, with a Pound equal to 20 Schelling, each of 12 Groats. One Flemish Groat was 12 French Deniers Tournois, and consequently a Flemish Pound was 12 French Livres.

A Flemish Groat was divided in 2 Liards (Dutch: Oord or Oort), 4 Duit, 8 Penningen or 24 Mijten or Mites. In 1433 the exchange rate between Flemish and Brabantian coins was fixed to 2 Flemish Groat = 3 Brabantian Groat. In Flanders the Double Groat gained popularity and would be known as Stuiver, Patard or Briquet. The Stuiver eventually evolved into a major sub-unit in the Northern Netherlands and Dutch Republic, along with the Duit. In the South, the Liard became the mostly used small unit of account.

Other denominations includes the Spanish Real of 12 Groat, the Florin of 40 Groat, the Gold Cavalier of 48 Groat and the Lion d'Or of 60 Groat.

Burgundian Netherlands:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pays-bas-bourguignons-1.html

For Burgundian coins (French feudal):
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/feodales-1.html

Belgian feudal coins:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/belgium-feudal-1.html

As always with these medieval coinages, there are still quite some inconsistencies in the catalogue:

- Coins of Burgundy (French Bourgogne) ended up in Burgundian Netherlands and should move to French Feudal.
- Coins of Burgundian Netherlands can be found in Belgium Feudal and vice versa.
- Belgium Feudal should be renamed Low Countries Feudal. It includes coins of Holland and Guelders.

Since Duke Philip the Good and his successors, several regions were brought In a single territory by strategy of inheritance and marriage: Flanders, the Duchy and free county of Burgundy, Artois, Brabant, Limburg and several French Regions under the Treaty of Arras (1435), until the death of Charles the Bold (1477) that he returned to France.

I don't question the family ruling these places, but in my opinion there is a geographical context in Burgundian Netherlands in the sense that it refers to the Burgundian possessions in the Low Countries. Otherwise we should call them the Burgundian States or something.

Always nice these discussions of 'countries' from before there were countries (i.e. nation states) :-)

This is the case of Savoy. On February 19, 1416, Emperor Sigismund of the Holy Roman Empire granted the title of Duchy of Savoy to the former county of Savoy, territory of the Holy Empire.
In Numista Savoy is divided between Feudal France and Italian States. Why?
Savoy was a state between 1416 and 1713, with its own coins.

You are right, Savoy is a pretty similar case. Its capital was in Chambéry which is now in France. Later it moved to Turin and it became more Italian, but there's not really an accurate cut-off point that could tell us how to catalogue this.

Same goes for Burgundy. We could put all Burgundian coins together because they had the same ruler. We could split them geographically and monetarily by separating the Low Countries that used the Flemish Pound from Burgundy in France that used Livre Tournois, like most parts of France did at that time.

What do the Dutch, Belgians and French on this forum think?

This has been discussed several times already. We are still waiting for Xavier to implement new country system, thus allowing to show same countries in different groups.

I have little knowledge about Low countries area, but one of nice examples will be Lorraine, that could show both under France amd German states.
Same could be done for Corsica.

Same flag as for Spanish Netherlands? Or is it the same country?

Quote: "ngdawa"​Same flag as for Spanish Netherlands? Or is it the same country?

​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Burgundy

The Spanish continued to use this flag even after Burgundy was ceded to France.

Countries did not really exist in those days. Elites managed their estates through inheritance, marriage or war. The locals were only loyal to their city or region, and to their church. The Dutch revolt wasn't even so much about Dutch identity, but more motivated out of religion and taxes.