After so many years with only English and French, it's time to open to more languages. I've made all the necessary technical adjustments, so the only (but big) remaining part is the translation, and I would like to start with Spanish.
Does any native Spanish speaker want to help with the translation?
The main part to translate is the interface of the website, with about 10 000 words. We will also need to translate all the database entries (issuer names, currency names, ruler names, etc.), although this can probably be largely automated.
If you are interested to participate to the translation, please send me a message, including a short introduction in Spanish.
Quote: "Xavier"Hello,
After so many years with only English and French, it's time to open to more languages. I've made all the necessary technical adjustments, so the only (but big) remaining part is the translation, and I would like to start with Spanish.
Does any native Spanish speaker want to help with the translation?
The main part to translate is the interface of the website, with about 10 000 words. We will also need to translate all the database entries (issuer names, currency names, ruler names, etc.), although this can probably be largely automated.
If you are interested to participate to the translation, please send me a message, including a short introduction in Spanish.
Xavier,
There are different forms of the Spanish language - differing between standard Castilian Spanish & Latin American Spanish.
It's the same like in the case of Brit.Eng and Am.Eng. The Spanish variants differ in pronunciation with doesn't matter, vocabulary and the usage of past tense which is most likely of small consequence.
Two very nice Spanish members already offered their help, and the translation is ongoing.
A Latin American version is possible, if anyone is willing to adjust the Castillan translations to Latin American Spanish.
The Spanish version of Numista will have the same features as the French and English versions, including a Spanish forum.
Great news! I speak Spanish only as a second language, though, so I don't think I can be of much help.
How does it impact the developers API? I see that all mentions to language have been updated to include Spanish ("es"), except for one: the "localized_label" schema. Is it expected behavior?
I would like to thank davidhs, oynbcn and zegeri who kindly offered their help to translate to Spanish!
I don't need more Spanish translators for the moment. A Latin American translator is still welcome if you would like to adapt the translation for Latin American Spanish.
The API is already available in Spanish. For any text that is not available in Spanish, it will fall back to English. When more and more translations are added in Spanish, you will start seeing them in the API. I adjusted the documentation for "localized_label".
I visit the French and the English sites daily. They have very different contents, with a Spanish site we would have 50% more subjects coming through! Tomorrow I'll also visit the Spanish site, because I also master that language. Just add German, and I can still follow....
Do you really think this will bring Numista one single inch forward? Already we have a problem of year line texts, documentations in French or English not showing on both sites! In the future we'll have it 50% more mixed up, so nobody will know, which langauge site is the more correct! Guidelines non existant as far as I can see?
Please think before acting, just try to align French and English first and then eventually go to other languages, but the grave of numista is getting deeper and deeper. NOBODY will really know what's happening on the different sites, nobody will have the ability to align everything!
Quote: "Xavier"I would like to thank davidhs, oynbcn and zegeri who kindly offered their help to translate to Spanish!
I don't need more Spanish translators for the moment. A Latin American translator is still welcome if you would like to adapt the translation for Latin American Spanish.
The API is already available in Spanish. For any text that is not available in Spanish, it will fall back to English. When more and more translations are added in Spanish, you will start seeing them in the API. I adjusted the documentation for "localized_label".
I could help with LatAm translations
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
This is a very bad suggestion, a question and its answer from one language will never bee known by the other language sites. There are no guidelines set up, no discussions about eventual solutions.
A megalomaniac idea, "in numista we have three individual languages", yes, but not a common board, so all the collected knowledge is lost out with the missing unification of the sites into a common language (esperanto?), which nobody masters.
For swaps it might bee good, but for advancing of ALL members knowledge about our hobby, it's certainly not a good idea.
Quote: "Sjoelund"Just my opinion:
I visit the French and the English sites daily. They have very different contents, with a Spanish site we would have 50% more subjects coming through! Tomorrow I'll also visit the Spanish site, because I also master that language. Just add German, and I can still follow....
Do you really think this will bring Numista one single inch forward? Already we have a problem of year line texts, documentations in French or English not showing on both sites! In the future we'll have it 50% more mixed up, so nobody will know, which langauge site is the more correct! Guidelines non existant as far as I can see?
Please think before acting, just try to align French and English first and then eventually go to other languages, but the grave of numista is getting deeper and deeper. NOBODY will really know what's happening on the different sites, nobody will have the ability to align everything!
Think, brothers, before the rats leave the ship.
Those were the days my friends...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3KEhWTnWvE
Just my opinion as usual
Ole
I agree with Ole here.
At first I thought that the coin pages were linked together, so if I made a change on the international site, the same changes would appear on the French site. I have recently realised this is not the case. I have made huge clean ups in the date lines of Central African Republics' banknotes catalogue, and now I've realised that on the French site it's still as messy. This means that I will have to spend the same amount of hours to do the exact same thing on the French site.
Maybe an idea would be that each country has two referees. One for the international site, and one for the French site. This way there will always be a person responsible of each side. For every 100 hours I spend on the international side, I spend 1 minute on the French. Are we, the referees, supposed to deal with both sides?
Quote: "ngdawa"Are we, the referees, supposed to deal with both sides?
Yes, referees are supposed to deal with both sides; referees are not in charge of a language but of a section/an issuer.
Yes we know that all pages are not 100% perfect, and yes not everyone speaks French, or English, or Spanish. In the real world, there is a trade-off between theory and practice.
Sapientiae plerumque stultitia est comes.
Si c'est un grand plaisir d'être reconnu par ses amis, c'est peut-être encore plus flatteur d'être reconnu par ses adversaires.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
With the addition of a third language, I plan to improve the coin creation & edition form, so that it will be possible to edit in multiple languages at the same time. It should help to keep the three versions in sync.
I see the Spanish catalogue as an opportunity to gather numismatists from more various backgrounds, which will probably help to get a more complete and richer catalogue.
Quote: "Xavier"With the addition of a third language, I plan to improve the coin creation & edition form, so that it will be possible to edit in multiple languages at the same time. It should help to keep the three versions in sync.
I see the Spanish catalogue as an opportunity to gather numismatists from more various backgrounds, which will probably help to get a more complete and richer catalogue.
Fine, please explain it in detail.
The more forae, the less information for each language group, it' s a dead end road for your ambitions. I ("speaking only one language") will never know, what's happening on the other two forae = I'm missing out on needed information about a coin I also have and have my doubts about. Who will decide if the French, the English or the Spanish site has the true description of a coin, who will the apply that in two other languages to the two other sites, who will translate documentations (like mine from one language to the other) already between the two sites existing to day, it doesn't work). Start to be realistic for the good of the members today.
Xavier, don't believe in the birds not able to fly, covering their heads in their individual head holes, are solving any problems. On the contrary they never learned anything about reality
I really hope this discussion will not lead to a rupture between us, since numista up to now, is the site where all coin collectors from all over the planet can learn the most about our common hobby and of course about the coin varieties. Keep it like that, please!
With regard to the problem of possible loss of information/identifications on the (3) forums, insofar as a member who is looking for information uses the Numista « search » function,
The results are already common to the French AND English forums. So the Spanish forum should be included. It is just necessary that the transcription of the inscriptions is good.
I wonder how many of all the members here knows there are two different sides of Numista. I've checked the French forum once. That was in like 2016. I often forget the two sides are basically two different websites.
The ideal would be a forum where everyone writes in their own language and, like twitter, there is a "translate" button. But I don't think that's technically possible.
I really hope this discussion will not lead to a rupture between us, since numista up to now, is the site where all coin collectors from all over the planet can learn the most about our common hobby and of course about the coin varieties. Keep it like that, please!
Quote: "Polette"With regard to the problem of possible loss of information/identifications on the (3) forums, insofar as a member who is looking for information uses the Numista « search » function,
The results are already common to the French AND English forums. So the Spanish forum should be included. It is just necessary that the transcription of the inscriptions is good.
Are you sure the search function includes the "other" sites as well?
Quote: "Polette"With regard to the problem of possible loss of information/identifications on the (3) forums, insofar as a member who is looking for information uses the Numista « search » function,
The results are already common to the French AND English forums. So the Spanish forum should be included. It is just necessary that the transcription of the inscriptions is good.
Are you sure the search function includes the "other" sites as well?
Yes, for example, if I search for "ludovicus" in the "forum" section, the results that are displayed are those of both the English AND French forums.
So Spanish will probably be included. It remains to copy and paste as I do on this forum. The translation is not ideal but we manage to understand each other anyway.
Regarding the fact that we are not aware of this topic on the French forum, if the Numista staff is only looking for 2-3 translators, there is no point in opening topics everywhere.
The difference in language is not such a problem as to make it a pretext for armed or unbearable conflict.
On the WEB, everyone can obtain the translation of what they visit (ie this), either online through specialized sites (Lexilogos, Reverso, etc.), or thanks to extensions (Google, S3, ImTranslator, etc.), to be inserted into their browser (Chrome, Firefox, Opera, etc.).
They translate a word, a text or the entire page for you, between 2 or up to 110 different languages, for free.
Some offer 4 possible variants in case of doubt, with dictionary, reverse retranslation and spoken listening on PC, tablet or phone.
Due to its international use, the Numista english version would have become the de facto reference.
By taking the first file in the catalog (among so many others) we often see that the translation is better except for a few details than the satellite version, sometimes it's the opposite, let's multiply the sources. https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces93992.html
1 Apsar The Bedia Cathedral of the Holy Mary, the Mother of God
1 Apsar Cathédrale de Bedia
Not to mention the content of the forums
Capito ?
Quote: "Xavier"Two very nice Spanish members already offered their help, and the translation is ongoing.
A Latin American version is possible, if anyone is willing to adjust the Castillan translations to Latin American Spanish.
The Spanish version of Numista will have the same features as the French and English versions, including a Spanish forum.
I will not be asking for a French Canadian version to be added, but could we agree on International French to be use ?
In some cases, French terms used here, automatically translated to French, are meaningless (if not wrong) for us French Canadians. It doesn't match the MRC terms used on their web site. It's little details mostly but they add up to make the site less interesting for us French Canadians. Being able to use this site in our native language is really great. That's why I've spent hundreds of hours verifying/standardising/translating everything and I'm not sure if I'm half way there yet...!
As you must know, being surrounded by hundreds of millions of English and Spanish speakers in North America, French Canadian's are really sensible with the use and protection of the French language.
We are annoying about it... and we know it !
Best regards,
P.S. Good thing to add spanish, I think it's a good suggestion also to assign referees "responsible" or "more aware" for specific languages when multiple languages are in usage in a country.
Québécois
Ancienement, référent du Canada / FYI former referee for Canada
Would it be possible in this way to assign some special referee for translations (checking auto translations) rather then to specific countries?
E.g. I can maintain only the English part of the catalog for my issuer, but the French one is mostly empty.... And I don't know how to work with this
My personal list of scammers from Numista: erniemix, yvain, CassTaylor
There were plans for a team of dedicated translators years ago but that didn't come through. I think to many referees especially without exact fields of responsibility are more a detriment then a benefit. Especially if they can't communicate efficiently with another.
For sites like uCoin and Colnect it's easy to have a butt-load of languages because they only have the technical data not much additional information that would need extensive translation that automatic translators would most likely mangle.
Personally I am once in a blue moon on French fora to look if somebody has an issue or questions about the catalog parts I am responsible for but that's about it. Don't think that will be any different with the new Spanish ones.
Quote: "Xavier"Two very nice Spanish members already offered their help, and the translation is ongoing.
A Latin American version is possible, if anyone is willing to adjust the Castillan translations to Latin American Spanish.
The Spanish version of Numista will have the same features as the French and English versions, including a Spanish forum.
I will not be asking for a French Canadian version to be added, but could we agree on International French to be use ?
In some cases, French terms used here, automatically translated to French, are meaningless (if not wrong) for us French Canadians. It doesn't match the MRC terms used on their web site. It's little details mostly but they add up to make the site less interesting for us French Canadians. Being able to use this site in our native language is really great. That's why I've spent hundreds of hours verifying/standardising/tranlating everything and I'm not sure if I'm half way there yet...!
As you must know, being surrounded by hundreds of millions of English and Spanish speakers in North America, French Canadian's are really sensible with the use and protection of the French language.
We are annoying about it... and we know it !
Best regards,
P.S. Good thing to add spanish, I think it's a good suggestion also to assign referees "responsible" or "more aware" for specific languages when multiple languages are in usage in a country.
Canadian French varies, especially Quebecois French, which has its own distinctive characteristics.
I don't know if Francophone Quebecois can understand standard French as spoken in France - but I can guess French people from France would find Quebecois hard to understand.
The translation projects reminds of the story of the Tower of Babel:
From Wikipedia:
"According to the story, a united human race in the generations following the Great Flood, speaking a single language and migrating eastward, comes to the land of Shinar; There they agree to build a city and a tower tall enough to reach heaven. God, observing their city and tower, confounds their speech so that they can no longer understand each other, and scatters them around the world."
Lesson: A huge project with many languages will not succeed.
Quote: "Sjoelund"The translation projects reminds of the story of the Tower of Bal:
From Wikipedia:
"According to the story, a united human race in the generations following the Great Flood, speaking a single language and migrating eastward, comes to the land of Shinar; There they agree to build a city and a tower tall enough to reach heaven. God, observing their city and tower, confounds their speech so that they can no longer understand each other, and scatters them around the world."
Lesson: A huge project with many languages will not succeed.
Quote: "CREPOSUC"For each unit We can always hope for exhaustive information on a version in the same language as the play rather than on an international version.
What do you mean, to me the message is without meaning?
I agree with Ole. It is nice to have many language versions of Numista but the work that is needed increases very much. So if there are many people contributing it may work but there will be more and more differences between the language versions as long as the information is not translated automatically. Just have a look at Wikipedia: the quality differs a lot between the language versions.
My fear is that there will be more and more discrepancy between the versions and missing information in all language versions in the end. I think it does not really compensate for the plus of extra information gained by having a better access to Spanish speakers.
I'm not orange and also in other things I'm not a Donald at all. DonChori like Don Felipe or Doña María, por favor.
Agreed. I asked for a thumb down addition years ago -
just after the thumb up was introduced.
There is already
Upvotes / Downvotes
so surely there should also be thumb down as well?
Thumb up reads:
I recommend this interesting topic!
So presumably a thumb down would read:
I do not recommend this uninteresting topic!
Hello everyone, my first opinion was to be happy about being able to have Numista in Spanish, I have even offered to collaborate in the translation (now for personal reasons I have had to leave this collaboration), but seeing some of the opinions expressed here, I consider that it would possibly be better to take this step (which obviously generates a lot of effort and dedication) a little later and to be able to dedicate, for the time being, all that effort to improving what already exists. It's just a personal opinion and, of course, whatever decision is made, I will always be willing to collaborate in whatever way I can.
Regards, Oscar
Coin referee for: Andorra, Equatorial Guinea, Marshall Islands, Moldova, Liberia and Spain
Banknote referee for: Andorra, Equatorial Guinea and Spain
I still believe we don't lose anything by opening to more languages. We just need to accept that there won't be only 1 version, but several versions of the catalogue. Some data are shared across multiple languages (rulers, currencies, lettering, etc.), while other data are language-specific (descriptions, comments, etc.)
People who add useful information on the French version of Numista would probably never have added it on the English version. The fact that they enrich the French version is not a loss for the English version. It's even a gain, if you consider that they may add pictures, rulers, etc., which are shared with the English version.
Another example: the fact that some useful information about variants are visible only in the comments of the English version is not a loss for French speakers. They will just not benefit of it. They would anyway not have seen it either if Numista was available only in English. With Numista being available in both French and English, they have a chance to have a version of Numista that they understand and they can switch to the English version if they want to check for any potential additional information on the English version.
I personally enjoy very much that there is a version of Wikipedia in my own language. And I also like that I can switch to the English version of Wikipedia to get different details, or any other language (using automatic translation) for topics that may be better described in their local language.
I understand there is a risk of mix-up with collections, if the same year lines are described differently in the various language. This problem already exists with French and English, and we should be careful it doesn't grow with Spanish.
To make sure that the new Spanish version will not only be beneficial for Spanish speakers, and transform it also into an opportunity for better information in the two other languages, I'm currently working on improving the tools to translate from one language to another and improving the coordination of efforts between the communities on the different versions of Numista: ability to create a coin directly in multiple languages (so you don't have to create the coin, switch to the other language, and modify the coin to add the descriptions in the other version), revive the role and tools of translators, and notify referees of forum posts about their issuer.
Maybe in such cases when real differences exist in two descriptions of the same coin they could be detected automatically, and links to description(s) in other language could be shown, just as in Wikipedia's articles?
I use Wikipedia on daily basis and I learn a lot by regularly switching between versions in multiple languages. Sometimes I benefit from them even when I have only rudimentary knowledge of a foreign language.
Quote: "Sjoelund"You mean to use some kind of AI (Artificial Intelligence) to make it function?
(I asume that you're addressing me.) Not necessarily something complex is needed. For example, when two descriptions differ very much with respect to length, or one of them is altogether absent, this could be easily detected without human judgement, and it indicates that the longer description may be worth seeing for users who have opened the shorter one.
Just an idea.
Quote: "Sjoelund"You mean to use some kind of AI (Artificial Intelligence) to make it function?
(I asume that you're addressing me.) Not necessarily something complex is needed. For example, when two descriptions differ very much with respect to length, or one of them is altogether absent, this could be easily detected without human judgement, and it indicates that the longer description may be worth seeing for users who have opened the shorter one.
Just an idea.
Much like if a year line comment is blank on one site then the other site's comment is used. Wonder what happens if 1 site is blank and the other 2 have comments?
Actually something like that is already happening. This is, I believe new behavior:
Quote: "Sjoelund"You mean to use some kind of AI (Artificial Intelligence) to make it function?
(I asume that you're addressing me.) Not necessarily something complex is needed. For example, when two descriptions differ very much with respect to length, or one of them is altogether absent, this could be easily detected without human judgement, and it indicates that the longer description may be worth seeing for users who have opened the shorter one.
Just an idea.
Oh no,
I just want something, which will be correct and defendable, not longer, nor shorter, just correct in ALL languages. The take over between the French and English sites are simply not acceptable as they are.
Just try to clear up the "problems" between the two existing sites, before adding more sites, please, stop the idea of growth through adding languages, just add quality!
Hav en god nat og sov godt (the next overly needed language in Numista)
Ole
Quote: "Xavier"I understand there is a risk of mix-up with collections, if the same year lines are described differently in the various language. This problem already exists with French and English, and we should be careful it doesn't grow with Spanish.
Hi
I had no knowledge over this info before or forgot about it, and true this is not OK and is also the only big thing that bothers me in this thread. So maybe from certain period in time, year line comments should be visible in all languages at the same time, no matter which "language pack" user currently uses. This could incentivize users to be more vigilant when adding new varieties or comments or better say give more attention to what is actually added.
In modifier page there could also be some kind of automatic translator to user selected language from any other available language year line data, but just as an additional helping tool and not as automated translation to all other languages. I hope I make some sense here.
I posted an idea before over sub-type pictures (https://en.numista.com/forum/topic116562.html), which could come in very handy into this whole thing, especially when there are many varieties for specific coin, token or note.
LP
Quote: "Xavier"I also like that I can switch to the English version of Wikipedia to get different details, or any other language (using automatic translation) for topics that may be better described in their local language.
I agree with this (and I do the same). However, on Numista, switching between languages is not as obvious as on Wiki. I know there is a way to change the language at the top of page, but I often forget about that because it is a drop-down--to change languages, I always directly modify the URL from (en) to (fr) because I find that the easiest way.
Perhaps something could be added similar to what had been done with the Numisdoc, where there could be a "See the French article" / "Voir l'article en anglais" link, somewhere at the top of each page?
And of course, when Spanish is added, that could appear alongside the other languages.
Quote: "Xavier"I still believe we don't lose anything by opening to more languages. We just need to accept that there won't be only 1 version, but several versions of the catalogue. Some data are shared across multiple languages (rulers, currencies, lettering, etc.), while other data are language-specific (descriptions, comments, etc.)
.../...
Totally agree. It is more practical to have the maximum information on a version without having to navigate to other pages or other sites.
Quote: "Sulfur"Perhaps something could be added similar to what had been done with the Numisdoc, where there could be a "See the French article" / "Voir l'article en anglais" link, somewhere at the top of each page?
Or a way to view all the fields in all languages at the same time? Above Xavier mentioned a way to edit all three at once, but viewing all three could help us decide whether we want to edit a page to improve consistency.
Quote: "Sulfur"Perhaps something could be added similar to what had been done with the Numisdoc, where there could be a "See the French article" / "Voir l'article en anglais" link, somewhere at the top of each page?
Or a way to view all the fields in all languages at the same time? Above Xavier mentioned a way to edit all three at once, but viewing all three could help us decide whether we want to edit a page to improve consistency.
If other languages come along in the future it would be much harder to set up a simultaneous view. Sulfur's idea seems to me much easier to implement, and would indeed be useful to have a link "see also the article in French, Spanish, etc
Automatic adaption in other language versions is needed to avoid chaos. Reading here in this topic I remembered a change request that I had done some time ago. I changed the ruler of an Afghan coin in the title of the page, it's not Habibullah but Amanullah (as written on the coin). https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces258369.html
I now checked the French version of this coin... and of course it still says "Habibullah". I had just changed the English version and created a inconsistency between the two versions. Xaviers idea might work if the important information is added automatically in the other versions, if it is guaranteed that every version has the same basic information. If not - it will be chaos.
I'm not orange and also in other things I'm not a Donald at all. DonChori like Don Felipe or Doña María, por favor.
Don't worry, with the creation of new language versions, all the information will be drawn from the previous versions, supplemented if necessary by Wikipedia articles.
The translation is done by the robot, bi-lingual volunteers or computer extensions.
I read this topic with attention and I'm glad we are moving to a third language.
From my humble perspective I would automatize as far as possible more aspect of the page creation like edge and so on to make it easier for the referees to do theire job.
I always struggled to validate a request in English and see the result in French and then be oblidge to edit the french part or the other way around. That was for me a deep frustration to do that because at the end when you have more than 100 request a day you just can't correct both language and you have to accept to do a 50% rubbish job…
I would strongly support to have a referee by language and to pubish the page only when you have the 3 approvals, but it's up to you.
XavierI still believe we don't lose anything by opening to more languages. We just need to accept that there won't be only 1 version, but several versions of the catalogue. Some data are shared across multiple languages (rulers, currencies, lettering, etc.), while other data are language-specific (descriptions, comments, etc.)
People who add useful information on the French version of Numista would probably never have added it on the English version. The fact that they enrich the French version is not a loss for the English version. It's even a gain, if you consider that they may add pictures, rulers, etc., which are shared with the English version.
Another example: the fact that some useful information about variants are visible only in the comments of the English version is not a loss for French speakers. They will just not benefit of it. They would anyway not have seen it either if Numista was available only in English. With Numista being available in both French and English, they have a chance to have a version of Numista that they understand and they can switch to the English version if they want to check for any potential additional information on the English version.
I personally enjoy very much that there is a version of Wikipedia in my own language. And I also like that I can switch to the English version of Wikipedia to get different details, or any other language (using automatic translation) for topics that may be better described in their local language.
I understand there is a risk of mix-up with collections, if the same year lines are described differently in the various language. This problem already exists with French and English, and we should be careful it doesn't grow with Spanish. To make sure that the new Spanish version will not only be beneficial for Spanish speakers, and transform it also into an opportunity for better information in the two other languages, I'm currently working on improving the tools to translate from one language to another and improving the coordination of efforts between the communities on the different versions of Numista: ability to create a coin directly in multiple languages (so you don't have to create the coin, switch to the other language, and modify the coin to add the descriptions in the other version), revive the role and tools of translators, and notify referees of forum posts about their issuer.
I can do the pt_br translation, the language of Brazil
