Even though the Litas are still exchangeable for Euros, this note is the only of the pre-Euro notes in my collection which have an exchangerate. It is the correct exchangerate.
Does Numista still collect data from the pre-Euro rates?
In that case it should be easy to add the "still exhangeable" feature, which has been discussed a coule of times, with the still exchangeable pre-Euro currencies..? :)
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This note has just not been marked as demonetized yet (it lacks a lot of information!), I will send a change request as it clearly has been demonetized and cannot be used in a shop anymore (even though indeed still exchangeable a central bank).
B
Just call me Bram
No new swaps for the moment, still too many half-ongoing swaps to clean up!
Not a bug, rather incomplete pages as Bram mentioned.
Bram's requests just validated so it is solved for this one. You may submit requests for other notes mentioned above.
Sapientiae plerumque stultitia est comes.
Si c'est un grand plaisir d'être reconnu par ses amis, c'est peut-être encore plus flatteur d'être reconnu par ses adversaires.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
Status changed to Done(pejounet, 19 Mart 2022, 16:29)
Why are we marking these notes as demonetized? The whole point of having an exchange rate is to show the monetary value of the notes (as opposed to their numismatic value). Since Lithuania has not demonetized the litu coins and notes, we shouldn't be claiming they have. We should set all of them to "not demonetized" then, when the "still in circulation" box is added, that can be marked as "no". That way, we are reflecting reality at all times.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Since 2015 January 16, Litas is no legal tender anymore and not accepted as a form of payments so makes sense.
Sapientiae plerumque stultitia est comes.
Si c'est un grand plaisir d'être reconnu par ses amis, c'est peut-être encore plus flatteur d'être reconnu par ses adversaires.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
I'm afraid you've fallen into the same trap as several others of misunderstanding the concept of legal tender. It relates to the payment of debts and does not imply by its absence that a coin or note has been demonetized. As I understand it, the litas, like the Deutsche Mark, will never be demonetized and will always retain a monetary value through its exchangeability for euros.
This is why a box indicating whether a piece has been withdrawn from circulation is required, separate from the demonetization box. Numista has been getting this wrong for a long time but that can't be used as an excuse for continuing to get it wrong.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Not fallen into the trap, I know the demonetized/legal tender stuff...and the debate around on Numista, there is a dedicated forum thread on this debate that you know about.
Here: Pegged and irrevocable rate based on data fixed before 2015. Litas has no monetary/currency "power". Litas is no legal tender. Litas is not accepted for payments nor trade nor financial exchanges nor debts payment i.e. cannot be used as a money i.e. lost its money status i.e. not "monetized".
And given current Numista features and guidelines, it's demonetized: 3.2.9 - demonetization feature on Numista is defined through legal tender status. (Yes I know it's in the "coin" section but demonetization rules are the same for both sections.)
Yes you can bring your Litas to the Bank of Lithuania and get Euros in place, but that's the "exchangeable/redeemable"point with central authority (here related to a currency system transition) not the legal tender status or the ability to pay things or debts with it. You still cannot pay with it (either your grocery or your debt).
And "withdrawn from circulation" is a different point; there are considerations of design, production and physical structure of the currency itself too.
Notes/coins withdrawn from circulation are still legal tender and can still be used for trade (some countries issue a specific time period, some don't). Basically when the physical notes/coins arrive at commercial or central bank, then they are put away and destroyed. But if you still have these notes in your wallet you can pay with them, go to your local post office, grocery store, butcher, etc.
That's why Litas notes withdrawn in 2007 are still exchangeable at the Bank of Lithuania: they were withdrawn from circulation in 2007 (replaced by new notes with new designs, features) but were still legal tender as of 2015 when Lithuania switched to Euro i.e. they still had a monetary value allowing you to buy things, or pay debts.
Sapientiae plerumque stultitia est comes.
Si c'est un grand plaisir d'être reconnu par ses amis, c'est peut-être encore plus flatteur d'être reconnu par ses adversaires.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
Yes, this is exactly the trap that others have fallen into. If the notes and coins aren't money, why will the central bank give euros for them? If the guidelines don't get this right, fix the guidelines. By that measure, Scottish and Northern Irish notes would be in exonumia, as they have never been legal tender.
From the Numista perspective, you need to look at the link between the "demonetized" box and the presence or absence of the monetary value (the original topic of this thread). This demonstrates that, when originally set up, it was understood that demonetization means loss of monetary value, not the end of general circulation.
Ask yourself the following question. Why can I buy a 100,000 lire note for £1.50 (€1.80, as I have done) but cannot hope to get a 100 Deutsche Mark note for less than ~£43 (~€51), despite both having approximately the same value in euros? The answer is simple, the Italian note has been demonetized, the German one has not. Numista ignores that key difference by wrongly claiming the 100 DM note was demonetized on 31/12/2001, something which would have surprised anyone in Germany on 1/1/2002 who was perfectly able to spend it on that day.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "ceh2019"If the notes and coins aren't money, why will the central bank give euros for them?
"Why does Germany still keep all this on the balance books? In a statement, the bank points to people's confidence in the mark and its onetime role as an international reserve currency, particularly in Eastern Europe and the Balkans.
The bank and the German government must put great store in the continued perception of trust, even though the original decision to keep the mark open was made when Germany was a European laggard still reeling from the shock of unifying East and West Germany."
Again, there is a difference between monetization (i.e. having a monetary value), exchange value, withdrawn from circulation, market value, etc.
Basically, monetary value is defined as something issued against the remittance of funds AND that can be used for payment transaction purposes i.e. it allows buyers and sellers to exchange goods and services.
Market value for an item is not relevant per se for demonetization matter. It's not because it is sold on the market for $50 that it has a legal value of $50 nor that it is legal tender nor that it has a monetary value...it's just what people are willing to pay for because of several reasons; sometimes emotional, sometimes practical.
For DM case, $50 is the "market" value because yes it can still be exchanged at the central bank. But these DM are still not legal tender and have no monetary value but an intrinsic exchange value at fixed exchange conditions for "practical" reasons....again you cannot pay legally with them.
The change to Euro has call for exchange periods with different levels, mostly: merchants/general life, then commercial banks, then central banks. That is a practical point to have the population use the new currency but still they're not legal tender anymore.
Yes DM had an exchange value after 2002 January 1st because of the technical procedure of switching currency systems, but still DM were not legal tender from 2002 January 1st onward. Main source for the info, well, the Bundesbank itself:
"[...]From 1 January 2002, euro banknotes and coins are legal tender in all EU member states participating in monetary union. This has nullified the legal tender status of all payment media denominated in Deutsche Mark [...]"
Currently, the line is: no legal tender = demonetized. Exchange date can still be indicated as a general comment on the page.
If at some point different fields are added, then the info can be moved to the dedicated field. As it has been the case over time for mints, manufacturing techniques, etc.
Sapientiae plerumque stultitia est comes.
Si c'est un grand plaisir d'être reconnu par ses amis, c'est peut-être encore plus flatteur d'être reconnu par ses adversaires.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
Quote: "pejounet"Currently, the line is: no legal tender = demonetized.
You've failed to prove this "equation". If you imagine the difference between the prices of the 100 DM and 100,000 lire notes is "emotional" you simply aren't looking at the facts and you're misleading collectors. By this absurd logic, all notes from Northern Ireland and Scotland would need to be moved to Exonumia since none of them have ever been legal tender. How do you explain that glaring hole in your argument?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Yeah...I won't bother to keep developing again and again or go into the same loop discussion as per the other thread...
Original request of this thread is solved so won't add more on this thread besides just putting that here again:
"monetary value is defined as something issued against the remittance of funds AND that can be used for payment transaction purposes i.e. it allows buyers and sellers to exchange goods and services."
Sapientiae plerumque stultitia est comes.
Si c'est un grand plaisir d'être reconnu par ses amis, c'est peut-être encore plus flatteur d'être reconnu par ses adversaires.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
Quote: "pejounet"Yeah...I won't bother to keep developing again and again or go into the same loop discussion as per the other thread...
Original request of this thread is solved so won't add more on this thread besides just putting that here again:
"monetary value is defined as something issued against the remittance of funds AND that can be used for payment transaction purposes i.e. it allows buyers and sellers to exchange goods and services."
I asked two questions and neither have been answered. Is this a discussion? You've written the same sentence twice without giving a source. Did you make it up yourself? If so, why the quotation marks?
To read your last reply, others will be lead to think these matter have been answered before when, in fact, they have been ignored. Why can't you answer my questions? Surely you must have answers if you're so confident the current guidelines are correct.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
