Currencies replaced by issuing authorities on issuer pages [solved]

I tried to look for some Russian coins recently and found out, to my surprise, that all the different currencies are meshed together in one listing, making it significantly harder to actually look for anything without specifically using the search window. (And even then it's nontrivial, because you can't actually search by currency.)

I assumed originally that it was a punishment specifically for Russia, but a check of other issuers found out that this is actually a wholesale replacement of currencies by ruling authorities. (Currencies are still in order, but no longer represented anywhere except on individual coin pages.)
I'm reporting it as a bug, because of the impact on search (again, you can search by ruling authority anyway, but you cannot, as far as I can tell, search by currency), and because it removed the (often quite useful) listings of currency subdivisions. But it's possible that this is (somehow) a deliberate change.

Any idea what's going on?
I think it might be related to Xavier's post in this thread - which, if I'm interpreting that post correctly, would make it deliberate - but it's sufficiently weird that I'm reporting it as a bug anyway, just in case.

Could you give an example?

Yes, I also noticed this yesterday in Netherlands > Burgundian Netherlands and in Netherlands > Spanish Netherlands.

Instead of the next level in the menu being provinces / sub-issuers (Brabant, Flanders, Gelderland, Holland, etc.) the next level is now the Ruling Authorities (Philip the Bold, John the Fearless, Philip the Good, etc.). IN this case, it also seems one level in the hierarchy has been removed.

I hope this is specific enough to help diagnose what happened.

So it looks like this?

Quote: "January First-of-May"​I assumed originally that it was a punishment specifically for Russia

Really? That’s a very weird assumption…
​

Jarcek, yes,

Previously, the first click on Burgundian Netherlands would give a box that looked something like this:

• Vlaanderen - Groot (1384-1506)
  
• Limburg - Groot (1406-1506)
  
• Namur - Gros (1421-1506)
  
• Brabant - Gros (1430-1506)
  
• Hainaut - Gros (1433-1506)
  
• Holland - Groot (1433-1506)
  
• Gelderland - Groot (1473-1506)
  

etc.

So I think this is exactly the same bug that January First of May is reporting

Just sort by face value problem solved.

I've found out that the change affects various other countries (and I looked only on a dozen of them).

And choosing sort by face value gives a different sorting than the one we used to see.
Maybe if they add "currency" as one of the sorting options, we could see the old sorting.

This should be the solution. Face value sorting should also be still the same.



Numista also remembers the last sorting you selected and uses it afterwards, until you change again.

Quote: "Jarcek"​This should be the solution. Face value sorting should also be still the same.
​
​
​
​Numista also remembers the last sorting you selected and uses it afterwards, until you change again.

​As far as I'm concerned, this option (which, by the way, I would not have even thought to look for until you pointed it out, and even then it was not immediately obvious) does not qualify as a solution until and unless a usable search option (and the face value one is probably the most usable in the vast majority of contexts) becomes the default. I don't want to have to manually fix my sorting each time I enter a new browser session to avoid it going back to an unmanageable version.

Coins from Roman provinces are particularly badly affected: what used to be a nice division by area, with a few leftovers, is now a ridiculous and unintelligible mess (there are no ruling authorities in Roman provinces, nor are there likely to be any there anytime soon, because it's a nontrivial question what they even should be).


...on second thought, "vast majority of contexts" might have been overstating it a little. IIRC there are a few places where approximately every ruler introduced their own face values, all in the same currency over centuries; those would be easier to sort by ruling authority, because otherwise it's all meshed up together. France is close to this situation, which might explain it being the apparent current default setting.

Alternately, and somewhat more commonly, you can have a situation like the Chinese Empire or the Tsardom of Russia - or indeed many medieval European places (including, again, France) - where approximately all the coins have just one face value (cash, kopek, and denier respectively), so sorting by face value would just mean sorting by date anyway, except the rare coins that happen to have a different face value would be shunted to the beginning or the end of the list; in which case a sorting by ruling authority would, at least, not make things worse.

OTOH, many modern countries have multiple currencies and no ruling authorities because it's all just the one republic, and/or the ruling authority change does not correspond with any currency change. So searching for anything specific in there would get weird.


Also, more importantly, currency listings used to have useful information, on the correspondence of the currency's subdivisions (especially valuable for medieval places). In a sorting by ruling authority, those important facts disappear entirely; you can't actually see how many reales there are in an escudo (16, by the way) anywhere at all (...except as side-notes on individual coin pages, I guess; and if that denomination was not issued in coin form, such as the English pound, good luck) unless you sort by face value.

this option (which, by the way, I would not have even thought to look for until you pointed it out, and even then it was not immediately obvious

- Default sorting is by face value. You either used it before (which you rule out, or clicked a search link from someone who had that setting

that all the different currencies are meshed together in one listing, making it significantly harder to actually look for anything without specifically using the search window

- I still do not get this in relation to Russia. It is possible that some currencies were used for wrong purpose (Roman provinces for example) and we are getting rid of that.

usable search option (and the face value one is probably the most usable in the vast majority of contexts) becomes the default. I don't want to have to manually fix my sorting each time I enter a new browser session to avoid it going back to an unmanageable version.

- Default is face value, unless user selects something else, so there is no need to do anything.

...on second thought paragraph - this is exactly why users can change their settings when they need to.

Quote: "Jarcek"​This should be the solution. Face value sorting should also be still the same.
​
​
​
​Numista also remembers the last sorting you selected and uses it afterwards, until you change again.

​Thank you. This worked for my issue, and I've learned a new feature on the website.

Some responses from me...

- Default sorting is by face value. You either used it before (which you rule out), or clicked a search link from someone who had that setting

Search link is possible, but I checked in several browsers where AFAIK I hadn't opened Numista before, and it was sorted by ruling authority by default. I just checked an online web proxy to be absolutely sure, and it still defaulted to ruling authority. I'm not sure how to prove it to you, though.
Perhaps default sorting is by face value when you're logged in, and by ruling authority otherwise? Would still be weird though.

- I still do not get this in relation to Russia.

I was trying to look for low-denomination recent coins (kopeks), saw lots of entries for 1990s coins with no obvious link to go to the modern currency, checked the next pages to see where they end, and after a few pages of 1990s coins it immediately went to 2000s coins, still in rubles. I ended up putting the denomination into the search, and the entries still existed, but I was a little angry that I couldn't find them in the normal way.
Again, I originally assumed that this was just a way of sanctioning Russians for the ongoing military operation (there was an earlier sanction briefly where all the random coins were Ukrainian, so it didn't seem all that impossible). But just in case I checked a few other issuers, and discovered the ruling authorities.

- It is possible that some currencies were used for wrong purpose (Roman provinces for example) and we are getting rid of that.

That's unfortunate. What sort of structure are you considering for a replacement?
(I guess in the long term just replacing them all by issuers, but that's a long way out, and it sounds like you want to first delete the currencies and, I'm guessing, just leave everything in one big mess for a while)

Quote: "January First-of-May"​Some responses from me...
​
​- Default sorting is by face value. You either used it before (which you rule out), or clicked a search link from someone who had that setting
​
​Search link is possible, but I checked in several browsers where AFAIK I hadn't opened Numista before, and it was sorted by ruling authority by default. I just checked an online web proxy to be absolutely sure, and it still defaulted to ruling authority. I'm not sure how to prove it to you, though.
​Perhaps default sorting is by face value when you're logged in, and by ruling authority otherwise? Would still be weird though.
​
​- I still do not get this in relation to Russia.
​
​I was trying to look for low-denomination recent coins (kopeks), saw lots of entries for 1990s coins with no obvious link to go to the modern currency, checked the next pages to see where they end, and after a few pages of 1990s coins it immediately went to 2000s coins, still in rubles. I ended up putting the denomination into the search, and the entries still existed, but I was a little angry that I couldn't find them in the normal way.
​Again, I originally assumed that this was just a way of sanctioning Russians for the ongoing military operation (there was an earlier sanction briefly where all the random coins were Ukrainian, so it didn't seem all that impossible). But just in case I checked a few other issuers, and discovered the ruling authorities.
​
​- It is possible that some currencies were used for wrong purpose (Roman provinces for example) and we are getting rid of that.
​
​That's unfortunate. What sort of structure are you considering for a replacement?
​(I guess in the long term just replacing them all by issuers, but that's a long way out, and it sounds like you want to first delete the currencies and, I'm guessing, just leave everything in one big mess for a while)

​I will check that default sorting again. Maybe I live in a lie.

Thanks for Russia explanation, makes sense. Why would we sanction coin catalogue is beyond my understanding.

Yes, long term replacement is by issuers, rulling authorities and currencies working as intended.

Quote: "Giobruno"​I've found out that the change affects various other countries (and I looked only on a dozen of them).
​
​And choosing sort by face value gives a different sorting than the one we used to see.
​Maybe if they add "currency" as one of the sorting options, we could see the old sorting.

​I can now confirm that sorting by face value results in an interesting possibly-bug, which I think hadn't been the case before...



(The currency of Madagascar had switched from the franc to the ariary in a way that effectively left the two interconvertible; this means that a face value sorting treats them as interchangeable through a conversion factor, and the old and new coins are sorted together by converted face value - resulting in an absolute mess in the currency list.)

It looks like the default setting for the display is back at face value.
Can someone confirm this?

Yes, mea culpa. Sorting default was face value but was recently changed to ruling authority (I did not even noticed) and was now changed back.

About Madagascar - these are result of moving coins between currencies. It is temporary state and it should always fix itself at next database resfresh (it happens once in 24 hours)