United States Coins

Perhaps this is a bit petty, but the dates for the United States coins are screwed up. The Federal Republic didn't begin to operate until 1789, but for our purposes, the beginning date should be changed to 1787-date to include the Furgo Cent.

Coins minted between 1776 and 1788 should be listed as Post-Colonial. During this time frame, each state was independent, though loosely confederated. 

Any coin minted before 1776, such as these Rosa Americana cents, should be listed as Colonial. The current category listed as “Pound sterling (1158-1970)” makes zero sense. This should be changed to Colonial (1652-1776) As far as I know, the first coins minted in the continental English colonies were in 1652, and not 1158.

Good points are raised (though much hinges on the meaning of “Federal”).

I am not an authority on U.S. coins, but to my way of thinking, there was a Colonial period (pre-1776) and a Federal period thereafter.  As I understand, the Articles of Confederation (1777) did not change the states acting as sovereign currency issuers,  but this was still under the umbrella of a confederated entity called the United States of America.     

Borrowing on other models like the Dutch Republic, the (sub)issuing authorities under United States (Federal and Pre-Federal) and their currencies might be re-organized like this (maybe not complete, but I think the model is clear).

American Colonies

• Maryland - Pound (1659-1776)
• Massachusetts - Pound (1652-1776)
• New Jersey - Pound (1681-1776)
• Virginia - Pound (1776)
• Other issuers (Rosa Americana, etc) - Pound (1722-1776)

United States of America

• Connecticut - Dollar (1777-1788)
• New Jersey - Dollar (1777-1788)
• New York - ??
• Vermont - Dollar (1777-1788)
• United States - Dollar (1785-)

OK, you also bring up some good points. Just as it stands now, the dates are very confusing, especially the dates “1158-1970”.  The first coin minted in these lands were in 1652 and not 1158.  I'd be happy if we just get rid of these dates. My two cents are:

- Before 1776 (Declaration of Independence), the colonies belonged to the British Empire. Referring to this time period as “Pre-Federal” is flawed.

The Articles of Confederation was not ratified until 1781, so between 1776-and 1781, the colonies were, by default, independent. As far as I know, no coins were minted during this period.

The Articles of Confederation were the law of the land between 1781 and 1789. By statute, each state was sovereign. There was a very weak central/federal/confederal body named the “Congress of Confederation”. A few of the sovereign states mints coins during this time period, mostly in 1786 and 1787.  The Fugio Cents were the only coins minted by the Congress of Confederation. 

The federal government, as we know it, came into existence in 1789.

Ben-jamin

OK, you also bring up some good points. Just as it stands now, the dates are very confusing, especially the dates “1158-1970”.  The first coin minted in these lands were in 1652 and not 1158.  I'd be happy if we just get rid of these dates. My two cents are:

 

- Before 1776 (Declaration of Independence), the colonies belonged to the British Empire. Referring to this time period as “Pre-Federal” is flawed.

 

The Articles of Confederation was not ratified until 1781, so between 1776-and 1781, the colonies were, by default, independent. As far as I know, no coins were minted during this period.

 

The Articles of Confederation were the law of the land between 1781 and 1789. By statute, each state was sovereign. There was a very weak central/federal/confederal body named the “Congress of Confederation”. A few of the sovereign states mints coins during this time period, mostly in 1786 and 1787.  The Fugio Cents were the only coins minted by the Congress of Confederation. 

 

The federal government, as we know it, came into existence in 1789.

We both agree that “pre-Federal” could be replaced by some term referring to the colonial status (American collectors have always referred to them as such, and I am surprised that more haven't commented).  That's why I suggested just two major sub-issuers, American Colonies and United States of America.  

I think the different forms of U.S. federal governnment before and after 1789 don't necessarily need to show up in Numista, unless the federal currency changed (and I don;t know the early issues and patterns well enough to comment).  

But coins issued by states versus issued by the Federal government need to be recognized differently (as they currently are).  

And coins issued by states are different than coins issued by colonies in my opinion.  A good analogy is the Dutch Republic.  Coins issued by Holland before 1580 are under a different issuer than coins after 1580 when the Dutch Republic was formed, with Holland as one of the seven provinces.

Finally, I agree that a currency for American coins that goes back to the 12th century looks odd, but  I think this reflects that the Colonial issues coins were minted to the English pound currency, which was much older

I have a comment regarding the dates of the pound currency. The range that is listed (1158-1970) is the same as the Pound Sterling under the United Kingdom. I think that we should amend the date for the US to reflect when the pound was actually used (I don't know when this is, I assume y'all have a better idea).

Another example of this is Ecuador and their use of the United States Dollar. Despite the Dollar being in existence since 1792, Ecuador only adopted it in 2000. This is reflected in the currency date range (2000-date).

As far as I am aware it is not possible to change this, the pound sterling is the pound sterling, like the euro will always start with 1999 regardless of when the country started using it.

Idolenz

As far as I am aware it is not possible to change this, the pound sterling is the pound sterling, like the euro will always start with 1999 regardless of when the country started using it.

Actually, this is possible to change. I would just create copy of pound currency with different date range and specify that both are the same.

Hello,

I just started work on US catalogue structure. It will be all tracked here: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic95133.html#p989476

 so I am also closing this thread, just to keep it in one place.

Ben-jamin

Perhaps this is a bit petty, but the dates for the United States coins are screwed up. The Federal Republic didn't begin to operate until 1789, but for our purposes, the beginning date should be changed to 1787-date to include the Furgo Cent.

 

Coins minted between 1776 and 1788 should be listed as Post-Colonial. During this time frame, each state was independent, though loosely confederated. 

 

Any coin minted before 1776, such as these Rosa Americana cents, should be listed as Colonial. The current category listed as “Pound sterling (1158-1970)” makes zero sense. This should be changed to Colonial (1652-1776) As far as I know, the first coins minted in the continental English colonies were in 1652, and not 1158.

 

 

The Rosa Americana coins should be under ‘British America’.

The coins are denominated as ‘Penny’ or ‘Pence’ - being part of the British American Pound currency - which was a pre-decimal currency.

12 Pence = 1 Shilling.

20 Shillings = 1 Pound.

Aidan.

Jarcek

Hello,

 

I just started work on US catalogue structure. It will be all tracked here: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic95133.html#p989476

 so I am also closing this thread, just to keep it in one place.

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