The Royal Canadian Mint has decided to keep the current E''R portrait for the earliest NCLTs of 2023.¹
Now, either we will eventually get Charles' effigy or a new obverse. The latter ─a completely new obverse─ seems likely. So, here is my guess of what it may look like:
My choice is motivated by the fact that the government will want to offend as few people as possible. Note that I'm not taking a position on whether they would be wrong to come to a decision in that particular way. Governments in western democracies usually choose the “less bad” option when a number of competing ideas are being assessed. If Charles is not retained for the obverse, though it could be defended by a tradition going back to 1858, it is unlikely that any symbol associated with the monarchy will be selected, as it is linked by many to colonialism and racism. Again, I am just stating a fact (i.e. what many believe), not taking a position.
In addition, we loss the maple leaf from our coinage when the 1 cent was discontinued in 2012. This fact could be use to justify its re-introduction.
If you have any other suggestion as to what the government (in discussion with the Mint) will decide, say it below (with or without a graphic). Let's wait and see who “wins”…
It could be the coat of arms, less likely imo the Maple leaf. it’s an overused symbol anyways. from my club meetings and certain members who are highly regarded in numismatic circles, they are in no doubt it will be Charles. So I’m inclined to believe we’ll continue to have another monarch grace our coinage.
I, too, was thinking of the Coat of Arms as another possibility, but I suspect it will be perceived as old fashioned and linked to the Monarchy, hence a problematic solution.
By the way, has it ever been updated to include indigenous peoples / nations?? As depicted on the 50¢ coin, it doesn't look like it.
I would argue the maple leaf is not overused on our coinage. After the 1¢ was discontinued, once in a while we had a few 25¢ commems depicting the flag or a single maple leaf, but nothing for several years now. I don't count the NCLTs and maple leaf bullion, since not circulating.
While I am no fan of any privileged monarchy, Charles' portrait would be more interesting from the numismatic point of view since it is grounded in contemporary history. I.e., he is (technically) the head of state, and would stay on coinage until his death when he would be replaced by his successor (William V?). Symbols like “Lady Liberty” or dead presidents or CoA or maple leaves are of little historical interest. When you look at the obverse of a Canadian George V coin, you know it falls into a 15 year period. Without reading the date, the type of an American or Swiss coin can rarely be attributed to a narrow period.
The value should be “1 DOLLAR & 5 CENTS” … Both of these Canadian icons are on our coinage, though of course the goose only on the 1967 dollar.
Not long ago I was threatened by a Canada goose along a railway. I walked on, not looking directly in the eyes of that vicious bird…
As for our carpenter rat, it proves useful in bridge building. Last spring I crossed a creek thanks to a beaver dam. Fun fact: they are the first animal ever showing on a postage stamp:
My first thought would be the Coat of Arms as well - but I think it wouldn't be used because it is still so associated with the 50 cent piece, still available even if only in collector sets or special run rolls.
But I LOVE the Coat of Arms design, though. It feels official, historical (I prefer the older design on the 50c during the silver years to the smaller version now), and very much makes me feel Canadian because, after all, who else has that exact CoA? 😀 But I'll accept that another connotation of official is “administrative” and/or “dry" ..
To be honest a moose is missing (don't know how you would integrate it, maybe on a shirt for the goose) and the beaver should hold a hockey stick and a jug of maple syrup.
Edit: ah some one made the changes already for a Christmas ornament
I would argue the maple leaf is not overused on our coinage. After the 1¢ was discontinued, once in a while we had a few 25¢ commems depicting the flag or a single maple leaf, but nothing for several years now. I don't count the NCLTs and maple leaf bullion, since not circulating.
I meant the maple leaf is over used in the context of marketing… almost every company will stick the maple leaf somewhere into their logo and their advertisements, govt does that too. I just feel it’s too easy and lazy
I didn't know these two characters, but they seem to be behaving like good Canadians. And this has me thinking that perhaps the Premier of Ontario should issue a $1 beer token 😬 (he could not issue official currency, of course). Those who know something of recent Ontario politics know what I'm talking about…
And to ashlobo I'll say that indeed the maple leaf is pervasive, but this is precisely a reason to use it on our coins. It is apolitical ─ i.e. not one single political party can claim it for itself nor can they legitimately attack such a symbol, for fear of being perceived as attacking Canadian values.
[EDIT ─ And I hope I'll be wrong precisely because the maple leaf has become such a bland symbol, almost a space-filler when you need a symbol. It's like public artwork approved by committees, such as this grotesque Human Rights monument in Ottawa.]
I posted in some other thread the over-the-top indignation of John Diefenbaker, then Conservative leader of the Opposition, in the late 1960s, when the Liberal Government acted on the modernization of our currency with the “multicolour” series. Diefenbaker was outraged that “Her Majesty” would be removed from several denominations.
Interestingly, I think that this wasn't the case about 150 years ago. I think there are reasons to believe that some representations of the maple leaf on 19th- and early 20th-century tokens was political. This is perhaps more obvious on this Banque du Peuple token, but also this Joseph Roy token, I would think. Roy was attacked for the quality of his tokens, but I think the underlying reason for the attack was political and (if I'm right) the maple leaf was a political statement. Something I may investigate further one of these days (I have a folder where I can download any new info or pictures).
Camerinvs, I believe that the RCM committee will go with the coat of arms (that's if they decide to break tradition & not put King Charles III on the coin). The reason I'm inclined to see them doing this is b/c the RCM is basically traditional & its not the government who make these decisions.
You wrote:
My choice is motivated by the fact that the government will want to offend as few people as possible. Note that I'm not taking a position on whether they would be wrong to come to a decision in that particular way.
But the RCM will discuss a design, have their engravers submit a few possible designs & then management will pick one to be shown to the parliamentary committee. The final decision may be up to the parliamentary committee, but I doubt that they would challenge what is presented to them. In fact, I really doubt that they will not put the king on the coins but I could be wrong. Usually both the BoC & RCM toe the traditional lines on most matters that involve the public (& the BoC even polled the public in terms of their designs). The RCM is unlikely to poll the public in terms of their designs (they haven't in the past so why would they start now?) The RCM may mix things up in terms of management diversity but I doubt that will influence their ultimate choices in design selections.
Yes, de facto the Mint probably sets much of the agenda, though de jure I believe the Minister of Finance puts his stamp of approval. On the Mint's website, the FAQ page is often careful to stress that the Government of Canada makes the decisions while the Mint implements them.
In 2012 the decision to phase out the “penny” is presented in the FAQ as a decision of the Government alone:
Why was the penny phased out of circulation?
In Economic Action Plan 2012, the Government of Canada announced that it would modernize Canada’s currency set by removing the penny from circulation. While the coins remain legal tender, the Royal Canadian Mint stopped distributing pennies on February 4, 2013.
The Government of Canada phased out the penny due to its rising cost of production relative to face value, the increased accumulation of pennies by Canadians in their households, environmental considerations, and the significant handling costs the penny imposes on retailers, financial institutions and the economy in general.
Of course, one wishes that the Government / Office of the Minister of Finance fully collaborates with the Mint to take their decisions. The Mint was probably happy with this decision as their Annual Reports would show an even healthier financial situation from then on. But in the citation they make it sound like they had no say in the matter. It's like they want to say: “Eh! If you don't like it, file a complaint with the Government, not with us! Our hands are clean!”
And yes, since my approach to collecting coins and other “economic artefacts” is historical, continuing with the tradition of the ruler's effigy would be more interesting. In 200 years from now, a collector will be able to align his/her coins by rulers and be able to learn something of history ─ especially that this reign is unlikely to be long until William V succeeds. If we adopt any other symbol, it may be there for the next 50 … 75 … 100 years??!! This is not as interesting.
There is a country with many of the same types since the late 1870s. The only thing these coins say ─and it's a good thing─ is that this country is very stable politically, in spite of frequent small quarrels and social tensions during plebiscites… From a collector's point of vue, however, this seems a little boring…
EDIT ─ Now I'm wondering whether the Mint might create new suggested obverses (including the royal effigy) according to the response expected from the ruling government. Would they create designs that are different if the Conservatives were in power? While the political situation is very different south of the border, I'm thinking of what happened in the States when the newly elected Republicans, back in 2017, cancelled the plans to have Harriet Tubman substituted for Andrew Jackson on the face of the $20 note.
From the press release I understand the government will direct the decision.
I really hope we get something better than the king. Something I would like to see is a different pattern for each denominations like in the US. If they stick with the king, I would like to see a modern depiction, something like Jefferson on the current US nickels.
We'll have to wait and see. This is from narcity.com:
Will there be King Charles coins in Canada?
While the new U.K. coins may shed some light on what Canada's new coins could look like, the Royal Canadian Mint recently told Narcity that the future design of Canadian coins is the "exclusive jurisdiction" of the federal government.
The Mint only manufactures and distributes Canada's circulation coins, so it will "abide by the decision and timetable" from the federal government on changing the "heads" design of coins.
The Mint also noted that there isn't a required timeline for distributing any new coins, so there's no definite answer about when Canada could see the change.
While it's not certain what Canada's coins will look like, it's likely that the same effigy of Charles will be used, as the queen's portrait was consistent across most currencies that featured her.
The decision should be published in the Canada Gazette, Part II, hopefully in one of the next issues (Feb. 1st, 15th, March 1st, 15th). The delay may be due to the fact that Parliament was on the Holiday break.
EDIT ─ While trying to find updates about the next obverse, I came across this CBC piece on how inflation might kill our beaver “nickel”. I have mentioned this possibility a few times over the years on this site since the expectation that the nickel will eventually be discontinued is nothing new. This would be sound policy, whatever we, collectors, think. In fact, you want your coin and polymer currency to be healthy if they're going to survive in this world where everything can be digitized.
Well… for those opposed to the effigy of Charles III on our coins, that would be a consolation prize! 😁
The main downside, IMHO, is that the same usual RCM deluxe trash will be produced: gold nickels, silver nickels, gold plated silver nickels, tenth-anniversary-of-the-end-of-the-nickel 50¢ and dollars and $15, etc. etc. etc. etc.
I think I remember reading there is a law in Canada that will need to be amended/voted by the Canadian Government if you want to remove the reigning sovereign's effigy from the Canadian coins. If true, this will take time.
Maybe that's why we have a transition obverse. Maybe they are buying time to prepare new obverse(s) and vote a new law. Or maybe preparing a Charles III effigy just takes longer than we imagine.
As you said, time will tell.
On the RCM web site (no mention of such law):
Why is the effigy of the Queen depicted on Canadian coins?
The portrait of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II appears on all Canadian coinage by tradition, as Canada is a constitutional monarchy. In fact, the image of the reigning sovereign has appeared on Canadian coins since the Royal Canadian Mint was founded in 1908. After the 1952 accession to the throne proclaimed Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II as Queen of Canada, the Government of Canada reiterated its decision to retain the image of the sovereign on Canadian coins.
Québécois
Ancienement, référent du Canada / FYI former referee for Canada
6.5 The Governor in Council may determine the design of any circulation coin to be issued. Dessin
6.5 Le dessin de la monnaie de circulation est fixé par le gouverneur en conseil.
Interestingly, what “Governor in Council” means is not defined where it should have been, i.e. in Section 2 ─ Definitions. We find it elsewhere in the legislation, e.g.:
Governor in Council (GIC) appointments are those made by the Governor in Council—the Governor General acting on the advice of Cabinet. An Order in Council is the legal instrument, which, when signed by the Governor General, formalizes an appointment.
Now it seems to me that clause 6.5 (quoted above) of the RCM Act doesn't say the same thing in French as in English: “may determine” = “est fixé”?
Still, in the end, the currently governing Liberal Cabinet (= Government??) will determine the design which will be rubber-stamped by the Governor in Council, even if she ─our first native Governor General─ were reluctant for personal reasons, e.g. if the King's portrait is substituted for the deceased Queen's.
Note the reference to the RCM Act sections 6.4 and 6.5, and the Governor General's rubber-stamping of the issue and design.
Some time ago I tried to find out what happened in 2002/3 when the Queen's fourth portrait was adopted, but gave up the search since I couldn't even find the older issues of the Canada Gazette in the archives. It used to be much easier.
Canadian legalese has not changed much over a century later and I expect we will have the same kind of formulation when the new obverse is enforced by the current Governor General.
EDIT 3
Here is the Gazette (Part II) issue of July 17th 1989 reporting on the changes to the obverse for 1990, pp. 4─7. The title of the Proclamation is misleading as it is not just about NCLTs but also base metal circulation issues.
EDIT ─ Whether a monarchist or a republican, one should perhaps appreciate the fact that there is more historical value in coinage with the living monarch than some bland maple-leafy symbol. This reign will be rather short and, if Canada remains a constitutional monarchy, the more popular William (V) will replace him in the not-so-distant future.
Now will we have 2023 coins with Charles' effigy? The RCM creates its own effigies since 1990. Was an artist already commissioned to start working on this new one? It may take several months before new dies are actually set up start striking coins…
Several countries and dependencies have already struck their own unique portraits for use exclusively on their coinage…. New Zealand, IoM, Gibraltar, Guernsey-Jersey-Alderney are some that come to mind. Unfortunately some of them are quite terrible, especially NZs where one would be hard pressed to readily identify Charles who is being depicted .
We shall see what Canada comes out with though I cannot imagine the RCM will not have their own portrait. Precedent has been set as well they can’t be seen to be left behind by the other Commonwealth realms
The process to create a new design for the effigy of His Majesty King Charles III is complex and involves many steps: Following the Government of Canada's announcement, an email invitation will be sent to more than 350 artists in our database as well as to our Mint engravers. Each artist and engraver who responds with a notice of interest and a required portfolio of portrait work will be evaluated. Each shortlisted artist and engraver will receive an artist brief outlining mandatory design requirements. Design concepts will be evaluated by an internal Mint review panel that will judge submissions based on aesthetics, technical requirements and mass-production suitability. The winning design will be submitted for necessary government and Buckingham Palace approvals. The Mint will then begin the engraving and tooling process where dies are created to strike the coins. Production, or striking, of new circulation coins will begin. Striking of the new effigy on numismatic and bullion coins will follow.
Facts about the new effigy What will the effigy look like?
In keeping with long-standing tradition, His Majesty King Charles III's profile will face left. This is the opposite direction in which the portrait of Queen Elizabeth II was depicted. The initials of the winning artist will also appear on the obverse.
Why didn't we use the British effigy since it is already finished and approved? Canadian coins have featured a royal effigy designed by Canadian artists since 1990 (Dora de Pédery-Hunt from 1990-2002 and Susanna Blunt from 2003 to the present). It is important that we continue to showcase the talent of Canadian artists on coins that will circulate by the millions across Canada for many years.
When will we see the new effigy?
We hope to be in a position to show Canadians the new effigy design in the fall, once the design process had been completed and the necessary approvals obtained.
When will I find one in my change? We cannot provide an exact timeline as of yet but details will be shared when the new effigy is unveiled.
Why is The King going on our coins?
The decision on the permanent obverse lies exclusively with the Government of Canada. As Canada's coin manufacturer, we will apply our considerable skill and expertise producing royal effigies on Canadian coins to the important and historic task the Government has assigned us.
Will coins bearing the image of The Late Queen need to be taken out of circulation/replaced with coins featuring The King? All coins currently in circulation remain legal tender, regardless of the fact that our monarch has changed. As coins have a life span of over 20 years, Canadians can expect to see "Queen" coins in circulation for many more years
I went to the “Faces of the Monarch” page earlier this morning, in the hope there would be an update, but nothing. This page you quoted is actually embedded (if that's the right term) inside the “Faces …” page, but can't be found there.
Much is new on the RCM website since a couple of days ago, when I last visited. Obviously they waited for the coronation to make the different announcements regarding the effigy of the new king on the coins.
It looks like there will be circulating coins with the transitional (E"R 1952-2022) obverse. If I'm not mistaken, the first such issue is a commemorative $2 coin which is said to be circulating:
So far as I can tell, there is no other circulating coin so far with the transitional obverse. You can see the obverse on this collector's “keepsake”.
With the RCM, one is not always sure whether by “circulation” they actually mean “circulating coin” or “circulation finish” but this issue will circulate.
It looks like there will be circulating coins with the transitional (E"R 1952-2022) obverse. If I'm not mistaken, the first such issue is a commemorative $2 coin which is said to be circulating:
So far as I can tell, there is no other circulating coin so far with the transitional obverse. You can see the obverse on this collector's “keepsake”.
With the RCM, one is not always sure whether by “circulation” they actually mean “circulating coin” or “circulation finish” but this issue will circulate.
Recently published official Canadian government documents show that a second commemorative circulation Toonie (coloured/non-coloured) will be issued in 2023 honouring artist Jean-Paul Riopelle.
Furthermore, a commemorative circulation Loonie will be issued (again, coloured/non-coloured) honouring aeronautical engineer Elsie MacGill.
It's likely the obverse will either be the ER 1952-2022 or, if the RCM has chosen a portrait by then, KCIII.
And if I understand you correctly, ashlobo, by “weed out” you mean that we now have evidence that at least some circulating loonies will be issued in 2023, beside the several non-circulating issues for this transitional year?
If no regular (non-commemorative) types are issued in 2023, this will be an exceptional year. Or perhaps they are waiting for the new portrait, but this would probably mean low 2023 mintages. So far, it looks like they have no intention of issuing regular types with E"R's transitional portrait.
Just write/type “Royal Canadian Mint Act” in the “Keywords” column and then click on search/list.
Camerinvs
If no regular (non-commemorative) types are issued in 2023, this will be an exceptional year. Or perhaps they are waiting for the new portrait, but this would probably mean low 2023 mintages. So far, it looks like they have no intention of issuing regular types with E"R's transitional portrait.
Yes, the RCM said that they will not issue regular circulation types with the "ER 1952-2022" portrait for acutual circulation.
The RCM is waiting for the portrait of KCIII for that. I highly doubt that the RCM will “waste” the opportunity to produce these coins in 2023. But this probably means low mintages for 2023-dated KCIII coins. We'll see.
But I LOVE the Coat of Arms design, though. It feels official, historical (I prefer the older design on the 50c during the silver years to the smaller version now), and very much makes me feel Canadian because, after all, who else has that exact CoA? 😀
I'm not Canafian, so I'm not as nostalgic about the CoA, what I see is:
• Imperially crowned prope holding a maple leaf
• The English lion
• The Scottish unicorn
• The flag of the United Kingdom
• Bourbon Flag
• Floral badge of England and Wales
• The thistle and shamrock (which are are the symbols of Scotland and Ireland)
• Three lions of England
• Lion rampant of Scotland
• Irish harp of Tara
• The Royal Banner of France
• Sprig of red maple leaves
So on the Canadian Coat of Arms, there are only two symbols representing Canada, and both are the maple leaf. All the other symbols represents either France, the Great Britain or Ireland. Isn't time to updage the Canadian Coat of Arms to represent Canada, not France, Great Britain, and Ireland? 🤷♂️
And if I understand you correctly, ashlobo, by “weed out” you mean that we now have evidence that at least some circulating loonies will be issued in 2023, beside the several non-circulating issues for this transitional year?
…
yep I meant excluding the annual special NCLT in the sets and the birthday issues
But I LOVE the Coat of Arms design, though. It feels official, historical (I prefer the older design on the 50c during the silver years to the smaller version now), and very much makes me feel Canadian because, after all, who else has that exact CoA? 😀
I'm not Canafian, so I'm not as nostalgic about the CoA, what I see is:
• Imperially crowned prope holding a maple leaf
• The English lion
• The Scottish unicorn
• The flag of the United Kingdom
• Bourbon Flag
• Floral badge of England and Wales
• The thistle and shamrock (which are are the symbols of Scotland and Ireland)
• Three lions of England
• Lion rampant of Scotland
• Irish harp of Tara
• The Royal Banner of France
• Sprig of red maple leaves
So on the Canadian Coat of Arms, there are only two symbols representing Canada, and both are the maple leaf. All the other symbols represents either France, the Great Britain or Ireland. Isn't time to updage the Canadian Coat of Arms to represent Canada, not France, Great Britain, and Ireland? 🤷♂️
some steps have been taken to make it more “Canadian” which invites it own backlash
But I LOVE the Coat of Arms design, though. It feels official, historical (I prefer the older design on the 50c during the silver years to the smaller version now), and very much makes me feel Canadian because, after all, who else has that exact CoA? 😀
I'm not Canafian, so I'm not as nostalgic about the CoA, what I see is:
• Imperially crowned prope holding a maple leaf
• The English lion
• The Scottish unicorn
• The flag of the United Kingdom
• Bourbon Flag
• Floral badge of England and Wales
• The thistle and shamrock (which are are the symbols of Scotland and Ireland)
• Three lions of England
• Lion rampant of Scotland
• Irish harp of Tara
• The Royal Banner of France
• Sprig of red maple leaves
So on the Canadian Coat of Arms, there are only two symbols representing Canada, and both are the maple leaf. All the other symbols represents either France, the Great Britain or Ireland. Isn't time to updage the Canadian Coat of Arms to represent Canada, not France, Great Britain, and Ireland? 🤷♂️
some steps have been taken to make it more “Canadian” which invites it own backlash
Nice piece of information, redlock. I always keep looking whether new orders based on the RCM Act appear in the Canada Gazette. The latest Orders will appear only in the July 5th issue, so your page is faster and better.
From the Canadian point of view, Charles is King of Canada. This fact was implemented in 1953/1954 when the then new Queen dropped “BRITT OMN” from her titles (e.g. on the halfpenny: 1953 vs. 1954-19…).
Many if not most Canadians believe that “the king of another country is king of Canada”. But this is not the way it works constitutionally. Charles is King of Canada on the same plane as he is King of the United Kingdom. From the Canadian point of view, his being King of the UK is not higher in the hierarchy of things. This adaptability to changing public attitudes is probably why there is still a Windsor as head of state of the “Dominions” and other Commonwealth Realms — New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Jamaica, etc.
See Numista's team member Compendium reply in this thread.
This entry is french only for now. Thousands of Numista entries are not yet properly edited in french or english, when they were created in one language only. Feel free to contribute! :-)
Best regards,
Québécois
Ancienement, référent du Canada / FYI former referee for Canada
See Numista's team member Compendium reply in this thread.
This entry is french only for now. Thousands of Numista entries are not yet properly edited in french or english, when they were created in one language only. Feel free to contribute! :-)
Best regards,
Oh, I was just warning our English readers that if they click on the link they'll get French even if it's the English catalogue.
And yes, it would be great if we could create the French, English and/or Spanish pages at the same time! (I could do some of the basics in Spanish by comparing with other Spanish pages.)
Is this new Canadian Crown based on an actual physical Crown like the Crown of St. Edward and the Tudor Crown are or is it just an empty, PC replacement symbol for historical Crowns dreamt up by Trudeau?
Is this new Canadian Crown based on an actual physical Crown like the Crown of St. Edward and the Tudor Crown are or is it just an empty, PC replacement symbol for historical Crowns dreamt up by Trudeau?
well, given they are talking about maple leaves and snowflakes, it’s obviously a made up crown. Then again, the st edwards crown that we are talking about is also a replica of the original thing Which as we know was melted down a few centuries ago. But then yet again, even the original St Edwards crown, that would also have been a made up thing wouldn’t it? Some guy a thousand years ago so full of himself, that he dreamt up a symbol to keep others down and peacock around as if he had some divine right :)
Yes — most historical artefacts and concepts acquire an aura of dignity or even sanctity through time, but their origin is always man-made. Edward's Crown acquired its lofty position largely thanks to the fact that Edward was made a saint.
As for the new commems that we discussed earlier, the latest issue of the Canada Gazette, pp. 1953-1971, provides many more details compared to the Orders alone, including a detailed description of both sides of each of the six coins. Perhaps most interesting is that they will all bear the “transitional” E"R obverse — unless an amendment is posted later to substitute the King's portrait if it's finalized by October or early November before the Riopelle coins are issued…
As for the new commems that we discussed earlier, the latest issue of the Canada Gazette, pp. 1953-1971, provides many more details compared to the Orders alone, including a detailed description of both sides of each of the six coins.
If you click on "attachment" in the Orders announcements you get the details, too 😉
As for the new commems that we discussed earlier, the latest issue of the Canada Gazette, pp. 1953-1971, provides many more details compared to the Orders alone, including a detailed description of both sides of each of the six coins. Perhaps most interesting is that they will all bear the “transitional” E"R obverse — unless an amendment is posted later to substitute the King's portrait if it's finalized by October or early November before the Riopelle coins are issued…
it's too bad that there is no release date mentioned for the three 2-coin sets mentioned here. I'd have the workers at my casino where I pick up a lot of commemoratives keep their eyes open for the new boxes just before the release time…
it's too bad that there is no release date mentioned for the three 2-coin sets mentioned here. I'd have the workers at my casino where I pick up a lot of commemoratives keep their eyes open for the new boxes just before the release time…
The NATIONAL INDIGENOUS PEOPLES DAY Toonies have been released.
One of the members at our recent coin club meeting had phoned up the RCM to inquire about any updates for the new Charles portrait and if there would be other changes to the 2024 circulation set. Apparently he was told the queen will continue to grace us into 2024. I’d be surprised since the RCM put it out there that we should expect a CIII portrait in the fall
Surprising and disappointing.. it’s not like designs and dies weren’t prepared at least a year before her passing.
Are we to assume the RCM has taken this long to create/approve/manufacture any of their NCLT items as well? Or the appropriate Crown bodies to debate and approve the circulating commemoratives? Wasn’t approval for this year’s Indigenous toonie, Macgill loonie, and Riopelle toonie completed just this spring?
We hope to be in a position to show Canadians the new effigy design in the fall, once the design process had been completed and the necessary approvals obtained.
I think “hope” is a key word here…
The last actual change of portrait was published in the Canada Gazette Part II, June 18th 2003. Each coin was described anew, from the $2 to the “penny”, including a repeat of the entire description for each of the “P”-marked coins (50-25-10-5-1 cents). Here is a typical description:
(iii) the design of the obverse impression of which shall be the effigy of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II by Susanna Blunt with the initials "SB" on the bottom left-hand corner of the neckline, the inscriptions "ELIZABETH II" and "D•G•REGINA" to the left and to the right, respectively, and the letter "P" below the effigy, and with beading around the circumference of the coin
If we're going to have to wait until 2024 or even later, how embarrassing… We're telling the world that we want to come up with our own design, but we actually can't do it before 2-3 years have passed because… committees.
But I don't believe the Mint would reveal anything of the schedule over the phone. I suspect the answer was actually so vague to mean almost anything…
Her Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Finance, under sections 6.4 and 6.5 of the Royal Canadian Mint Act,
(a) authorizes the issue of a two-dollar circulation coin, the characteristics of which are to be as specified in item 1 or 1.1 of Part 2 of the schedule to that Act and the diameter of which is to be 28.03 mm, and determines the design of the coin to be as follows:
(i) the obverse impression is to depict, on the inner core of the coin, the effigy of His Majesty King Charles III by Steven Rosati, with the initials “SR” on the bottom right-hand corner of the lapel and on the outer ring, the inscriptions “CHARLES III” and “D∙G∙REX” to the left and right of the effigy, respectively, and, at the bottom of the outer ring, the inscription of the year of issue,
(ii) the reverse impression of which is to depict, on the inner core of the coin, a polar bear standing at the edge of an ice floe surrounded by water and other ice floes, the artist’s initials “BT” on the lower right-hand side of the ice floe on which the polar bear is standing, and, centred at the top of the outer ring, two virtual images of a maple leaf between two slanted lines, and at the bottom of the outer ring, two security marks, each consisting of a maple leaf within another maple leaf within a circle, with the number “2” between the two circles and with the inscriptions “CANADA” and “DOLLARS” appearing to the left and right of the circles, respectively, and
(iii) the edge is to show the inscriptions “CANADA” and “2 DOLLARS”, with a maple leaf before and after the inscription “CANADA”;
I think not if the formal approval is only coming now. But the thing that actually caught my interest, after clicking the link, was that under paragraph C, the announcement is for a $.50 circulation coin! If we take this literally, will we see those back in circulation again after 20 years away?
That's actually a good question, but I'm sure it will be the same 50 cent coin as before, sold only in rolls. These coins are, from the legal point of view, circulating. They are described as thus in the RCM Annual Reports and also on the RCM web site.
I think this means that if they enter circulation, a person or bank couldn't turn them down. No one is legally bound to accept as payment all the odd NCLT denominations such as $3, $15, $350, etc., but the regular denominations are, I think, legal tender once taken out of the packaging or display card. So, if you get a Christmas loonie in your change, I expect you would save it, but you could legally use it as payment and the other party should not turn it down.
From my understanding, and after reading quite a few decrees and other coin-related legal texts, including the RCM Act, what matters most is whether a denomination and shape is in “Schedule 1” or “Schedule 2” of the RCM Act. The 50 cents is in Schedule 1 and therefore circulating.
I’m curious to see what the Charles portrait looks like. Stale and along expected lines, or something relatively more dynamic. Its a little bit overdue no?
as far as the NCLT argument is concerned, it’s a bit of a false comparison comparing a birthday loonie to other NCLT. Your average joe/Jane aren’t going distinguish a regular loonie from these special edition ones. I dont think they’ll be too concerned about a 50c either. Everything else will raise suspicion as one wouldn’t see those.
the $20 for $20 were suppose to be exchangeable but the banks found a convenient way to discourage people… just wait for 3months till you get your money upon deposit. Those coins live in A grey zone
I’m curious to see what the Charles portrait looks like. Stale and along expected lines, or something relatively more dynamic. Its a little bit overdue no?
Based on the artist's profile, it's likely to be very traditional. Note that he has already produced a number of NCLT reverses, including hockey history coins. Let's hope his obverse is better than the new NZ obverse, which (like many others) I'm not particularly fond of.
ashlobo
As far as the NCLT argument is concerned, it’s a bit of a false comparison comparing a birthday loonie to other NCLT. Your average joe/Jane aren’t going distinguish a regular loonie from these special edition ones. I dont think they’ll be too concerned about a 50c either. Everything else will raise suspicion as one wouldn’t see those.
Of course, I agree that the average Joe/Jane is not going to notice the difference. It takes a coin collector to know… one like you… or yours truly. My point is rather to emphasize the difference in the legal status between different coins we categorize under the “NCLT” umbrella. Much was said about all this in this thread.
ashlobo
The $20 for $20 were suppose to be exchangeable but the banks found a convenient way to discourage people… just wait for 3 months till you get your money upon deposit. Those coins live in A grey zone
That's very interesting. Do you have a link to some page about this 3-month wait? I knew the banks had turned down the $20/$20 coins based on their legal status —they are non-circulating— but not that they used that argument. Of course, if you're going to use your Bugs Bunny and Tasmanian Devil cartoon coins, it's probably that you're badly short of money in the present moment.
The $20 for $20 were suppose to be exchangeable but the banks found a convenient way to discourage people… just wait for 3 months till you get your money upon deposit. Those coins live in A grey zone
That's very interesting. Do you have a link to some page about this 3-month wait? I knew the banks had turned down the $20/$20 coins based on their legal status —they are non-circulating— but not that they used that argument. Of course, if you're going to use your Bugs Bunny and Tasmanian Devil cartoon coins, it's probably that you're badly short of money in the present moment.
I had a look at that artist‘s link and indeed I don’t hold out much hope. Considering that his initials will appear on the lapel, I assume it might look closer to the Australian Portrait.
on the $20 for $20, I do remember reading the details somewhere in the RCM website when they ended the programme. However I saw an actual dispute go down in person. I was at a coin shop at the atrium mall at Dundas square. A man walked in asking the owner to give him $20 for his coin. The owner told him to go to the CIBC next door which is when he said the bank told him he must deposit the coin into his account and wait 90 business days. but only after he argued with them and showed them the RCM website. else they were trying to give him the bum‘s rush. Problem was that he didn’t have a CIBC account either.
like others, he bought the coin because it was silver only to realise later on that the melt value was actually less than face value. So there was a rush to dump the coins either with banks or the RCM which also was obliged to take back the coins, though they attempted to make it similarly unappealing to get your money back
I neglected to mention, rumour has it that the portrait will be unveiled on Tuesday
Interesting. That might give just enough time for a modest run of 2023 circulating coins. It does help that the reverse dies are certainly ready to go since there is no change to the reverse designs.
If no circulating issues, it is likely that “prooflike” year sets will be produced anyway.
This has me reading the Mint's 2023 Second Quarter Financial Report. Not surprisingly, there is nothing of use on this topic, but I note these surprising statistics on page 9:
Foreign Circulation
Revenue from the Foreign Circulation business decreased 89% and 88% to $2.7 million and $5.1 million, respectively for the 13 and 26 weeks ended July 1, 2023 compared to $23.8 million and $41.7 million in the same periods in 2022. Foreign circulation contract opportunities continue to be limited due to on-going geopolitical tensions and global economic uncertainties, although there has been an uptick in central bank activity compared to 2022. The decrease in Foreign Circulation revenue reflects 64% lower volumes produced and shipped quarter over quarter, and 77% year over year.
So, it's a significant drop of revenue overall for the Mint.
This is from page 14:
Canadian circulation
As the World Health Organization ended the global emergency status for COVID-19 (May 2023), virtually all pandemic-related retail restrictions have been lifted in Canada and consumers are responding by resuming in-person shopping, social activities, and returning to their workplace. As barriers to travel continue to ease, it is anticipated that international visitors will enjoy tourist destinations, attend conferences, and conduct business activities across the country.
While still below pre-pandemic levels, coin activity has been increasing each year for the past three years. This trend is expected to continue; 2023 coin requirements are anticipated to be higher than those of 2022, but still below pre-pandemic levels.
Maybe there will be a need for 2023 circulation coins if no 2022-dated coins were struck in 2023…
Media Advisory - ROYAL CANADIAN MINT TO UNVEIL EFFIGY OF HIS MAJESTY KING CHARLES III AND STRIKE FIRST CIRCULATION COIN BEARING HIS IMAGE
WINNIPEG, MB, Nov. 10, 2023 /CNW/ - The Royal Canadian Mint is holding an event to unveil the effigy His Majesty King Charles III that will appear on the obverse of all Canadian coins and strike the first circulation coin bearing this new image. This ceremony will take place at the Mint's Winnipeg manufacturing facility on November 14, 2023.
As the event takes place in a high security area of the facility, media are asked to bring one piece of photo ID. Personal protective equipment must also be worn at all times and will provided upon arrival. No high-heeled or open-toed footwear is allowed.
Where:
Royal Canadian Mint
Press Room
520 Lagimodiere Blvd
Winnipeg MB
When:
Tuesday, November 14, 2023
Media arrival: 12:15 pm
Unveil and First Strike: 1:00 pm
Who:
Marie Lemay, President, Royal Canadian Mint
Steven Rosati, Portrait artist
If they're striking new coins on the spot, it's going to be 2023 coins.
Couldn’t they unveil the portrait and it says 2024, with the explanation that they couldn’t make enough in time for nationwide distribution by the end of the year?.. 🤔 especially if it is all denominations?
I think it could go either way… if the RCM takes a leaf from the RM book, they’ll do a strike of the day which means 2023. They could also very well follow an Austrian model of the next year issue, this year
I bet on the 2023 date. Even if it's late in the year, it's still 2023.
They're producing few foreign coins these days (as acknowledged in the Quarterly Report quoted above) so they can put a lot of wo/manpower and resources on producing 2023 circulating coins.
In addition, the RCM seems to be always quite late in releasing the year's coins. Sometimes I don't see them until the summer. So, it wouldn't be too shocking to start seeing them even so late as December.
Also, it looks better for the RCM that they came to a decision in 2023 rather than 2024.
EDIT — On the CBC news they just said the coins would go into circulation "early next month", so definitely 2023.
We will see he new canadian effigie today and the first coins will be minted this afternoon. We already know that Charles III will show his left profil.
Céline F.
(Anciennement référente pour billets du Canada / Former referee for Canada's banknotes)
Posted this on Coin Community earlier this year when those purple non-circulating 2023 QE2 sets came out:
”I think I've become extremely cynical, because there is a part of me that says the https://www.mint.ca/">RCM will pull an "AirMiles" style bait-and-switch... Do all the Canadians remember that?
(they said Miles were going to expire after a certain period of time after years of saying "no expiry", so people bought all kinds of crap just to use them after saving for a big trip for 20 years, then the uproar was enough that later they said "oh we change our minds back now, so back to no expiry"?)
Was it the plan to stay the same all along, but this was how they got people to get rid of a lot of Miles for crap instead of saving for 10 more years for trips?
Like I said, I won't be surprised if it's all just a plan to make sure these sets really sell out first, then double dip and have the KCIII ones come out all along. (I hate feeling this suspicious..)”
haha, you beat me to it. Along expectedly stale portrait. However once the details are clearer, hopefully it will capture CIII likeness better than that god awful NZ portrait
Ah! Ah! And you saw like me that in the first few seconds all we saw was a bright white disk.
They had not thought about this… They should have done a trial run with another plaster cast.
EDIT — Today is Charles' birthday… which I knew but never connected the two events.
Also, yes, darcynmt, they're going to cash in with new collectors' sets. I'm happy I'm not into this. But I think it's right that the new coins will be dated 2023. I'm just looking to add the individual pieces to my collection whenever possible.
Will 2023 be a low-mintage year? That seems likely.
I am amazed by what the artist, Steven Rosati, was able to do with a subject (ah! ah!) who is not the most photogenic of this world…
This portrait is so good that the two previous ones, i.e. Canadian E"R's portraits 3 and 4 (1990-2024), pale in comparison. Of course, one has to take into account that the artists worked within strict guidelines set by the RCM.
So far, IMHO, not other numismatic portrait of Charles even comes close from the artistic point of view (and whatever one thinks of the Monarchy).
I expect this new portrait to win numismatic recognition and prizes in years to come.
Good idea, ashlobo, this thread on C'''R portraits.
Another interesting thing that we barely discussed so far is the circulating status of the 50-cent coin. This was made obvious in the whole process of the unveiling and how the coins are presented on the RCM website.
The 50c is still legal tender, and was made available to the banks at face value until 2002 I believe. There was a partnership with Laura Secord to give back in change the 2002 Golden Jubilee 50c in an attempt to revive the use of the coin, but the banks did not increase their demand and in fact the RCM stopped making “regular” rolls at about that time. They kept producing only collectors' rolls… at a premium of course.
So, pre-2003 50c coins distributed mostly via the banks in plain rolls are fully legal tender. Later years have all been issued in special rolls or wraps or sets, but if I'm not mistaken, from the legal point of view, these coins are circulating. In other words, I don't think any 50c coin inside any 2003-2023 roll ever belongs to the category of NCLT. From the practical point of view, of course, they are struck for collectors. They are not meant to facilitate the purchase and sale of goods or services.
