Hungarian Denár '15666' - error/counterfeit? [solved]

Hello

I have recently purchased a small lot of poor condition Hungarian Denárs. It included this coin, which seems to show the date ‘15666’. Weight is 0.41g. The Numista page (N#22141) shows that weight should be 0.58g, but we can see from the pictures that a lot of the coin is missing from clipping or damage, so my instinct is that this matches what we could expect. The lettering does not seem to be right, for example, the P in PATRONA on the reverse (first picture) looks like a B. It is hard to tell from the picture, but there is a lot of coppery colour coming through, particulary on the reverse, almost as if the coin was silvered/silver washed or made of billon, as opposed to actually being made of .5 silver.

I would be surprised if this a modern counterfeit, given the condition and lack of value in this coin (1566 is the most commonly registered year on Numista), but what is the alternative explanation? Is this an error? A contemporary counterfeit? Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I wish you a nice day without stress.

   In my opinion, it is a period forgery. According to the design, I assume,, Transylvania,,- In the Middle Ages, there were several workshops in caves where illegal coinage and casting of fake silver with a high copper content or just silvering took place. It was a capital crime and counterfeiters couldn't read and write and often didn't even know numbers - they just imitated what they needed - that's why such scum. They weren't exactly artists and they worked secretly by candlelight, hence the pretty smile of "Madonna" and the bearded speech of "Jesus Christ".

Conclusion: period forgery

An example of such a workshop in the Middle Ages in our territory, "Bohemia",:

,, The best-known evidence of money counterfeiting in our territory in the 15th century comes from the caves near Koněprus. A fake mint with a secret entrance was probably operated here by Petr Kořenský from Terešov, the owner of the Korno fortress near the village of Koněprusy. In the forgery workshop uncovered in 1950, for example, a wooden minter's stock, a wooden container with the remains of copper scraps, silver-plated copper scraps or minted fake coins were found. The discovery of the workshop is a unique event in the history of Czech numismatics, as it shows a process for which there was no documentation until then.,,

https://itras.cz/konepruske-jeskyne/galerie/18629/

This is another money-making workshop in the same vein:

,, Another workshop was discovered in the Babí pec cave in Kozákov near Turnov. Experts found pieces of cissura, copper waste or silver-plated copper scraps there. There were at least ten hearths in the cave with remains of charcoal, pink sand and ceramic shards. The object of forgery was the same coins as in the case of the Königsberg forgery workshop.,,

My opinion and just in a hurry - I don't want to write longer posts-it's just that in the Middle Ages it was also an interesting source of income in the same way that some societies impoverish us today.

Ahoj Ivan

MIMAEL

I wish you a nice day without stress.

   In my opinion, it is a period forgery. According to the design, I assume,, Transylvania,,- In the Middle Ages, there were several workshops in caves where illegal coinage and casting of fake silver with a high copper content or just silvering took place. It was a capital crime and counterfeiters couldn't read and write and often didn't even know numbers - they just imitated what they needed - that's why such scum. They weren't exactly artists and they worked secretly by candlelight, hence the pretty smile of "Madonna" and the bearded speech of "Jesus Christ".

Conclusion: period forgery

An example of such a workshop in the Middle Ages in our territory, "Bohemia",:

,, The best-known evidence of money counterfeiting in our territory in the 15th century comes from the caves near Koněprus. A fake mint with a secret entrance was probably operated here by Petr Kořenský from Terešov, the owner of the Korno fortress near the village of Koněprusy. In the forgery workshop uncovered in 1950, for example, a wooden minter's stock, a wooden container with the remains of copper scraps, silver-plated copper scraps or minted fake coins were found. The discovery of the workshop is a unique event in the history of Czech numismatics, as it shows a process for which there was no documentation until then.,,

 

https://itras.cz/konepruske-jeskyne/galerie/18629/

 

This is another money-making workshop in the same vein:

,, Another workshop was discovered in the Babí pec cave in Kozákov near Turnov. Experts found pieces of cissura, copper waste or silver-plated copper scraps there. There were at least ten hearths in the cave with remains of charcoal, pink sand and ceramic shards. The object of forgery was the same coins as in the case of the Königsberg forgery workshop.,,

 

My opinion and just in a hurry - I don't want to write longer posts-it's just that in the Middle Ages it was also an interesting source of income in the same way that some societies impoverish us today.

Ahoj Ivan

 

 

 

Hi there Ivan

Thank you very much for your help and the informative reply on an interesting topic! Do you know how common such coins are now? I will definitely be keeping it in my collection.

HI.

It won't be ordinary, it's definitely a rarity-compared to the common denar, however, it is certainly not a treasure in the sense of big money.

This is for the assessment of those who are interested in period fakes.

Colleague, I recommend that you contact in writing via e-mail-

Štefánikovo nám. 21.11., 967 01 Kremnica
Tel: 045/6780301
E-mail: muzeum@nbs.sk

https://www.muzeumkremnica.sk/en/contact/museum-staff-2/

There is a team of specialists for this type of denars, and they are people at a professional level and will be happy to answer you. I just recommend using magic words- Magic words no,, abraka -dabraka,, - but please and be nice and help. (they hear and react to it - I've been there)

And definitely keep it in your collection .

Ivan

Please let us know the museum's answer here - when you decide.

Ivan

MIMAEL

Please let us know the museum's answer here - when you decide.

Ivan

No reply yet! I will try again today for the final time.