Ober Ost and Warsaw: should this be its own issuer? [solved]

Hello!

I recently acquired one of these coins:

N#7070

In the description, these are said not to have circulated within Germany, but rather the eastern occupied territories of Germany during the First World War (including Estonia, Poland, and parts of Russia). There were also not only coins issued in these occupied territories, but also banknotes (which are currently listed under their own “occupation” currencies).

Considering how the circulation area is different than all of Germany, perhaps these items should be under their own issuer?

I took the name “Ober Ost and Warsaw” from the Wikipedia page talking about the currency--it is the most accurate term I have found to describe this circulation area so far, although perhaps someone with more knowledge on this era could propose something better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ostrubel

And here are all the items in question:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-2.html#c_allemagne-pre1945253

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-1.html#c_allemagne-pre1945253

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-1.html#c_allemagne-pre194510434

Thoughts and comments welcomed, of course.  :)

Hello,

Considering that these coins and banknotes were intended for circulation outside of Germany (unless we consider that Ober Ost was part of Germany at that time; I don't know enough about this part of history), they should not be listed with issuer Germany. Since Ober Ost overlaps several current countries and does not belong to any other issuer in the issuer list, it should probably be a new issuer.

For comparison, Japanese puppet states in China have their own issuers in the Chinese section (e.g. Manchukuo) and British Military Authority banknotes are currently under discussion in this forum thread. We could also compare to French Indochina, which also has a separate issuer for coins issued by French authorities on a territory that is nowadays split between several modern countries.

I'm pinging the referees so that they can share their opinion.

My understanding is that the issuers should make the placement of the notes georgaphically and politically more into perspective.

Support the idea to move to an own issuer.

Philip

Sounds like the circulation area was more-or-less the same as the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, though that probably doesn't help.

So, to try and move this to a conclusion (also realizing that this is a part of the world and a time that poses challenges to the catalog structure):

1.  Though we have a good example of French Indochina as a multi-country top-level issuer, maybe in this case the brief duration (only 1916) and small number of issues (only 3 coins and 7 notes) justify one level lower (sub-issuer), more like the Manchukuo example?

2.  The circulation area appears to have been parts or all of Poland, Lithuania and Latvia, with circulation persisting longest in Lithuania (wikipedia link). 

3.  The coins were struck in German mints, the banknotes were printed in Poznan (modern Poland)

4.  KM lists them under German Empire (which we have decided against), Schon lists them under Lithuania.

If there is consensus with premise 1 (make it a sub-issuer if possible), then two possibilities are:

a.  Lithuania > Ober Ost Occupation Issues.  This aligns with Schon and with comments that circulation persisted longest here.

b.  Poland > Polish States > Ober Ost Occupation Issues.  This fits with the role of the Warsaw Governemnt, and use of this Numista section for many other parts of the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Partitions of Poland) in the 19th century.

I vote for (a).  We don't always aspire to align with the other world catalogs, but I think when we have choices like this, that should be a factor.

OK, that was too long 🙂.

How about we create a sub-issuer Lithuania > Ober Ost Occupation?  

This would align with Schon (for more detailed explanation, see the previous post).

Ober Ost has been created as an issuer and the coins moved.