I was looking in my Krause catalog of 1501-date (2011) german coins and noticed quite a lot of states on numista or other such stuff have a set standard of smaller denominations to the thaler for a large chunk of time. Unfortunately that would not be true in some cases that I am seeing on numista. Here are the parts I underlined from my krause book which talks about inflation of the kreuzer to the thaler. I can see some of this going on in some of the more worked on states but not some others some others sometimes have a set value from the kreuzer to the thaler over quite a vast swath of time.
like I see in some that all throughout the gulden (which is always based as 60 kreuzers) is 2/3 of a thaler but some cases that is not true due to the inflation of the kreuzer over time and that relation to the thaler. In 1551 a gulden equaled 5/6ths of a thaler and then after 1580 until the thirty years was it was 2/3rds of a thaler, then when the inflation kicked off and before reforms the gulden became less and less in value to the thaler since they were not debasing the content of the thalers but of the more used coins especially even low denominations that the gulden.
The Schön DM catalog has detailed currency information at the start of most states listed. That would be a good source for improving the currency situation.
(It's on my list to work on, but my list is long.)
It also has information on mint officials. I only showed part of the list above, there are over thirty entries in the Hannover list.
The Schön DM catalog has detailed currency information at the start of most states listed. That would be a good source for improving the currency situation.
(It's on my list to work on, but my list is long.)
It also has information on mint officials. I only showed part of the list above, there are over thirty entries in the Hannover list.
Speaking of Hannover Krause got it completely wrong in some 1800’s silver coinage, there are some at almost pure percentage silver that were smaller for circulation but Krause does not include that the same design and year of some can be 75% silver and larger diameter
The Schön DM catalog has detailed currency information at the start of most states listed. That would be a good source for improving the currency situation.
(It's on my list to work on, but my list is long.)
It also has information on mint officials. I only showed part of the list above, there are over thirty entries in the Hannover list.
Speaking of Hannover Krause got it completely wrong in some 1800’s silver coinage, there are some at almost pure percentage silver that were smaller for circulation but Krause does not include that the same design and year of some can be 75% silver and larger diameter
The Schön DM catalog has detailed currency information at the start of most states listed. That would be a good source for improving the currency situation.
(It's on my list to work on, but my list is long.)
It also has information on mint officials. I only showed part of the list above, there are over thirty entries in the Hannover list.
Speaking of Hannover Krause got it completely wrong in some 1800’s silver coinage, there are some at almost pure percentage silver that were smaller for circulation but Krause does not include that the same design and year of some can be 75% silver and larger diameter
I've picked up all (I hope) of the 19th century changes to the German states' currencies but we clearly need to do a lot more work on the earlier periods. Can I suggest putting together a list here of the changes required? Then the new currencies can be set up and the individual coins moved.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
I've picked up all (I hope) of the 19th century changes to the German states' currencies but we clearly need to do a lot more work on the earlier periods. Can I suggest putting together a list here of the changes required? Then the new currencies can be set up and the individual coins moved.
yeah the currency system should be fine for those years. Only thing that needs attention to during then is the fact about the coins from Hannover that I mentioned above.
if you give me what needs to be changed and where, I will gladly do it.
busy for today but at the end of the day should be able to get a list together of some states that should probably have more that their one set currency system. It is just that the kreuzer throughout the 1500’s to mid 1600’s just became more and more less valued thus making it be that more was needed to make a Thaler. Some states throughout this don’t even change that kreuzer to Thaler conversion rate when it went from the first Augsburg regulation standard in 1551 of 72 kreuzers to a Thaler to then in 1580 going to 90 kreuzers to the Thaler. I understand it is hard to get the inflation rates of the kreuzer to the Thaler when it rises drastically with no regulation standard during the thirty years war but some states don’t have the kreuzer to the Thaler as the regulations had set which was 1551 up to 1580 being 72 kreuzers to the Thaler and the 1580 until inflation of the kreuzer from the thirty years war it was 90 kreuzers to the Thaler.
sorry for the wait I am doing some montfort coin creations as we speak but again it is just the difference between the two conversion rate periods between the kreuzer and the thaler in the 1500's that need changing in some states not all
1551 to just before 1580: 72 kreuzer = thaler
1580 and on till the at least 1667: 90 kreuzer = thaler (there was inflation of the kreuzer from the 30 years war but no set monetary regulation)
after 1667 I would need a bit more time to find out what state and were did their own collaborative monetary regulations
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If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
once I am done adding the rest of the compiled list of montfort coins from auctions I am adding I will try and see how getting this done would work out
I’m sorry ab this I have been stricken with a sudden move due to some things out of my control I was thinking about righting a paper at how the Thaler at least changed in value to the Cologne mark which will also help with adding silver percentages to Thaler coins that have not been put on yet.
Having personally worked on the German states coinage for quite some time, I think the conventionsthalers and reichsthaler systems should be indicated per state instead of just a “thaler” currency, as the two had completely different values and denominations.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Having personally worked on the German states coinage for quite some time, I think the conventionsthalers and reichsthaler systems should be indicated per state instead of just a “thaler” currency, as the two had completely different values and denominations.
Ok I’ve had some thought about this and will get more info written down about this.
First of all, currency exchanges before conventions Thaler set up in Bavaria in 1753 are really really irregular throughout time. Currencies that were not pegged to other currencies often were up to the seller of goods to make the exchange rate and it often was not standardized by authorities.
Second of all, I know this is not the way numista has set up stuff before but I think this would be the best course of action, what I think we should do is for coinage before 1753 (at least for stuff in southern Germany) is separate currencies that would be pegged to the Thaler (for southern Germany it would mainly be fractional thalers) in one section and currencies that were pegged to the gulden (which was always 60 kreuzer) in another section. The exchange values between the currencies pegged to the gulden vs the Thaler before 1753 were really more or less left up to the market to decide and thus to make it less confusing I think on numista they should be separated from each other.
Now there are a few other systems of currency in Germany especially up north where stuff like 36 mariengroschen equals a Thaler and ofc that sort of currency will have to be worked out as well.
All in all, I think this is the best option going forward for Holy Roman Empire area coinage on numista.
Sincerely,
Silvergeek
( I am currently still in the process of moving but I will be getting info together and I hope everyone working on numista good luck.)
Ok I’ve had some thought about this and will get more info written down about this.
First of all, currency exchanges before conventions Thaler set up in Bavaria in 1753 are really really irregular throughout time. Currencies that were not pegged to other currencies often were up to the seller of goods to make the exchange rate and it often was not standardized by authorities.
Second of all, I know this is not the way numista has set up stuff before but I think this would be the best course of action, what I think we should do is for coinage before 1753 (at least for stuff in southern Germany) is separate currencies that would be pegged to the Thaler (for southern Germany it would mainly be fractional thalers) in one section and currencies that were pegged to the gulden (which was always 60 kreuzer) in another section. The exchange values between the currencies pegged to the gulden vs the Thaler before 1753 were really more or less left up to the market to decide and thus to make it less confusing I think on numista they should be separated from each other.
Now there are a few other systems of currency in Germany especially up north where stuff like 36 mariengroschen equals a Thaler and ofc that sort of currency will have to be worked out as well.
All in all, I think this is the best option going forward for Holy Roman Empire area coinage on numista.
Sincerely,
Silvergeek
( I am currently still in the process of moving but I will be getting info together and I hope everyone working on numista good luck.)
So long as the conventionsthaler and reichsthaler systems are distinguished, this is fine. If states used gulden, the landsmunze (144/thal) and conventionsmunze (120/thal) kreuzer should also be distinguished
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
So long as the conventionsthaler and reichsthaler systems are distinguished, this is fine. If states used gulden, the landsmunze (144/thal) and conventionsmunze (120/thal) kreuzer should also be distinguished
Yep just gotta get this all noted down organized into different sections and then we can start organizing numista with it with an admins help.
IIRC similar to the values of the thaler the referees for France figured out the fluctuation of the ecu and standardized the coins on one currency system. I don't think 1753 needs to be a hard separation for currency as many of the same coins continued to be issued after the convention.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
IIRC similar to the values of the thaler the referees for France figured out the fluctuation of the ecu and standardized the coins on one currency system. I don't think 1753 needs to be a hard separation for currency as many of the same coins continued to be issued after the convention.
Yeah but often their purities and sizes changed. I’m talk mainly about stuff before then separating thalers and currencies that were always the same fractions of thalers to one area and stuff like kreuzers and batzen and stuff that was always the same fraction of gulden together. so that there is more order to them instead of it all being what was the value of it to a Thaler which for some coins that was up to the market to decide with inflation of gulden currencies.
IIRC similar to the values of the thaler the referees for France figured out the fluctuation of the ecu and standardized the coins on one currency system. I don't think 1753 needs to be a hard separation for currency as many of the same coins continued to be issued after the convention.
Yeah but often their purities and sizes changed. I’m talk mainly about stuff before then separating thalers and currencies that were always the same fractions of thalers to one area and stuff like kreuzers and batzen and stuff that was always the same fraction of gulden together. so that there is more order to them instead of it all being what was the value of it to a Thaler which for some coins that was up to the market to decide with inflation of gulden currencies.
Heller coinage started as its own coinage system in early germanic monetary history (I forget where it originated) edit: originated in 'Schwäbisch' Hall (thx to Idolenz)
Pfennig coinage started as its own single unit coinage system in very early germanic monetary history
Gulden system coinage started out in 1484 in Austria
Thaler system coinage started out in Bohemia in 1519 under the counts of Schlick
Ducat coinage started out in 1284 in Venice and was its own currency system in Germanic lands.
All these systems fluctuated in value between each other day by day on the open market and exchanges between them were not really standardized until the middle of the 1700’s
So for example with Montfort coins it would be sorta like this for stuff before 1753 (often coins types that had their last year as 1753 would fit here)
- Heller (fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ 1 Heller (1)
~ 4 Heller (4)
- Pfennig (fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ 1 Pfennig (1)
~ 2 pfennig (2)
- Gulden coinage (coinage of this system fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ ¼ Kreuzer (1/240)
~ ½ Kreuzer (1/120)
~ 1 Kreuzer (1/60)
~ 2 Kreuzer (1/30)
~ 3 Kreuzer (1/20)
~ 4 Kreuzer (1/15)
~ 10 Kreuzer (1/6)
~ 12 Kreuzer (1/5)
~ 15 Kreuzer (¼)
~ 20 Kreuzer (⅓)
~ 30 Kreuzer (½)
~ 60 Kreuzer (1)
~ 1 Goldgulden (1)
~ ¼ Carolin (2.5)
~ ½ Carolin (5)
~ 1 Carolin (10)
- Thaler coinage (coinage of this system fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ 1/8 Thaler (1/8)
~ ¼ Thaler (¼)
~ ½ Thaler (½)
~ ⅔ Thaler (⅔)
~ 1 Thaler (1)
~ 2 Thaler (2)
- Ducat (fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
IIRC similar to the values of the thaler the referees for France figured out the fluctuation of the ecu and standardized the coins on one currency system. I don't think 1753 needs to be a hard separation for currency as many of the same coins continued to be issued after the convention.
Yeah but often their purities and sizes changed. I’m talk mainly about stuff before then separating thalers and currencies that were always the same fractions of thalers to one area and stuff like kreuzers and batzen and stuff that was always the same fraction of gulden together. so that there is more order to them instead of it all being what was the value of it to a Thaler which for some coins that was up to the market to decide with inflation of gulden currencies.
Heller coinage started as its own coinage system in early germanic monetary history (I forget where it originated)
Pfennig coinage started as its own single unit coinage system in very early germanic monetary history
Gulden system coinage started out in 1484 in Austria
Thaler system coinage started out in Bohemia in 1519 under the counts of Schlick
Ducat coinage started out in 1284 in Venice and was its own currency system in Germanic lands.
All these systems fluctuated in value between each other day by day on the open market and exchanges between them were not really standardized until the middle of the 1700’s
So for example with Montfort coins it would be sorta like this for stuff before 1753 (often coins types that had their last year as 1753 would fit here)
- Heller (fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ 1 Heller (1)
~ 4 Heller (4)
- Pfennig (fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ 1 Pfennig (1)
~ 2 pfennig (2)
- Gulden coinage (coinage of this system fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ ¼ Kreuzer (1/240)
~ ½ Kreuzer (1/120)
~ 1 Kreuzer (1/60)
~ 2 Kreuzer (1/30)
~ 3 Kreuzer (1/20)
~ 4 Kreuzer (1/15)
~ 10 Kreuzer (1/6)
~ 12 Kreuzer (1/5)
~ 15 Kreuzer (¼)
~ 20 Kreuzer (⅓)
~ 30 Kreuzer (½)
~ 60 Kreuzer (1)
~ 1 Goldgulden (1)
~ ¼ Carolin (2.5)
~ ½ Carolin (5)
~ 1 Carolin (10)
- Thaler coinage (coinage of this system fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ 1/8 Thaler (1/8)
~ ¼ Thaler (¼)
~ ½ Thaler (½)
~ ⅔ Thaler (⅔)
~ 1 Thaler (1)
~ 2 Thaler (2)
- Ducat (fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ ¼ Ducat (¼)
~ ½ Ducat (½)
~ 1 Ducat (1)
~ 2 Ducat (2)
~ 3 Ducat (3)
~ 8 Ducat (8)
~ 10 Ducat (10)
See how if things would be set up this way it would be a million times less confusing? Ofc other places would have to be custom done as they also would have other currency systems they would use.
Ok I’ve had some thought about this and will get more info written down about this.
First of all, currency exchanges before conventions Thaler set up in Bavaria in 1753 are really really irregular throughout time. Currencies that were not pegged to other currencies often were up to the seller of goods to make the exchange rate and it often was not standardized by authorities.
Second of all, I know this is not the way numista has set up stuff before but I think this would be the best course of action, what I think we should do is for coinage before 1753 (at least for stuff in southern Germany) is separate currencies that would be pegged to the Thaler (for southern Germany it would mainly be fractional thalers) in one section and currencies that were pegged to the gulden (which was always 60 kreuzer) in another section. The exchange values between the currencies pegged to the gulden vs the Thaler before 1753 were really more or less left up to the market to decide and thus to make it less confusing I think on numista they should be separated from each other.
Now there are a few other systems of currency in Germany especially up north where stuff like 36 mariengroschen equals a Thaler and ofc that sort of currency will have to be worked out as well.
All in all, I think this is the best option going forward for Holy Roman Empire area coinage on numista.
Sincerely,
Silvergeek
( I am currently still in the process of moving but I will be getting info together and I hope everyone working on numista good luck.)
IIRC similar to the values of the thaler the referees for France figured out the fluctuation of the ecu and standardized the coins on one currency system. I don't think 1753 needs to be a hard separation for currency as many of the same coins continued to be issued after the convention.
Yeah but often their purities and sizes changed. I’m talk mainly about stuff before then separating thalers and currencies that were always the same fractions of thalers to one area and stuff like kreuzers and batzen and stuff that was always the same fraction of gulden together. so that there is more order to them instead of it all being what was the value of it to a Thaler which for some coins that was up to the market to decide with inflation of gulden currencies.
Heller coinage started as its own coinage system in early germanic monetary history (I forget where it originated)
Pfennig coinage started as its own single unit coinage system in very early germanic monetary history
Gulden system coinage started out in 1484 in Austria
Thaler system coinage started out in Bohemia in 1519 under the counts of Schlick
Ducat coinage started out in 1284 in Venice and was its own currency system in Germanic lands.
All these systems fluctuated in value between each other day by day on the open market and exchanges between them were not really standardized until the middle of the 1700’s
So for example with Montfort coins it would be sorta like this for stuff before 1753 (often coins types that had their last year as 1753 would fit here)
- Heller (fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ 1 Heller (1)
~ 4 Heller (4)
- Pfennig (fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ 1 Pfennig (1)
~ 2 pfennig (2)
- Gulden coinage (coinage of this system fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ ¼ Kreuzer (1/240)
~ ½ Kreuzer (1/120)
~ 1 Kreuzer (1/60)
~ 2 Kreuzer (1/30)
~ 3 Kreuzer (1/20)
~ 4 Kreuzer (1/15)
~ 10 Kreuzer (1/6)
~ 12 Kreuzer (1/5)
~ 15 Kreuzer (¼)
~ 20 Kreuzer (⅓)
~ 30 Kreuzer (½)
~ 60 Kreuzer (1)
~ 1 Goldgulden (1)
~ ¼ Carolin (2.5)
~ ½ Carolin (5)
~ 1 Carolin (10)
- Thaler coinage (coinage of this system fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
~ 1/8 Thaler (1/8)
~ ¼ Thaler (¼)
~ ½ Thaler (½)
~ ⅔ Thaler (⅔)
~ 1 Thaler (1)
~ 2 Thaler (2)
- Ducat (fluctuated on its own to other currency systems)
Heller coinage started as its own coinage system in early germanic monetary history (I forget where it originated)
They come from 'Schwäbisch' Hall, that's where the name comes from (Haller → Heller) at the beginning a Pfennig equivalent around 1200, after an edict in 1385 its value was halved.
Heller coinage started as its own coinage system in early germanic monetary history (I forget where it originated)
They come from 'Schwäbisch' Hall, that's where the name comes from (Haller → Heller) at the beginning a Pfennig equivalent around 1200, after an edict in 1385 its value was halved.
Cool yeah but seems to have been revalued constantly in later years so it should be separate imo
Excellent point on the early coinage, 15th century and before in particular, where the thaler had not even existed. These should absolutely have their own "currency"
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
