Coins/Currency of the Ober Ost [solved]

Hi all I'm looking to have the coins and currency of the Ober Ost moved under Germany (similar to how the German states are) as the Ober Ost was German

Here's a link to the information 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ober_Ost

Whether we put them in Germany or not, we need a more meaningful name than “Ober Ost”. German Occupied Territories seems the obvious one to use.

We can also put these banknote issues there.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-3.html#c_allemagne-pre1945253

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-3.html#c_allemagne-pre194510434

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-4.html#c_allemagne-pre194510435

ceh2019

Whether we put them in Germany or not, we need a more meaningful name than “Ober Ost”. German Occupied Territories seems the obvious one to use.

Ober Ost is quite literally the short form of its official German name

Oberbefehlshaber der gesamten Deutschen Streitkräfte im Osten

Yes, that's the title of the commander-in-chief, part of which appears on the coins. That seems to me much more approptiate as an issuing entity rather than an issuer. By creating “German Occupied Territories”, we can link all the distinct issues in a single place, including these coins from WWII.

ceh2019

Yes, that's the title of the commander-in-chief, part of which appears on the coins. That seems to me much more approptiate as an issuing entity rather than an issuer. By creating “German Occupied Territories”, we can link all the distinct issues in a single place, including these coins from WWII.

Or we could make it something like that:

 German Occupied Territories

  → During World War 1

  → During World War 2

I think something like that would be better than dividing it by region.

I do not have an opinion on moving Ober Ost under Germany, but in regards to some other things said in this thread:

I think the name “Ober Ost” is fine. At least, according to the Wiki article: “Ober Ost was both a high-ranking position in the armed forced of the German Empire as well as the name given to the occupied territories on the German section of the Eastern Front of World War I, with the exception of Poland” (I should add, my original suggestion, when creating this issuer, was to call it “Ober Ost and Warsaw,” as the coins also circulated in parts of Poland, but that's another issue).

With that being said, while I do agree that those WWII examples should be separated from Germany, I do not agree that they should be merged with the Ober Ost coins, as they circulated in much different geographical areas. I cannot seem to find one comprehensive list on where these WWII coins exactly circulated, but the farthest from Ober Ost is like the Channel Islands:

https://history.gg/guernsey-reichsmarks/

Naming the issuer might be difficult. Considering how wide their circulation would have been, perhaps “German occupation of Europe” could work (in-line with our issuer “Japanese occupation of Oceania”).

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1320053

If we split between WWI and WWII, we need the following.

Issuer: German Occupied Territories, WWI

Currency: Rubel (Coins and notes)

Currency: Mark (Notes)

Issuer: German Occupied Territories, WWII

Currency: Mark (Coins and notes)

“Ober Ost” is a nickname at best and shouldn't be used as the name of the issuer. It should be used (unabbreviated) as the issuing entity for the WWI coins. “German occupation of Europe” would be an acceptable alternative as long as the WWII issues weren't used in North Africa. However, we don't currently have “Japanese occupation of Oceania”, we have “Oceania, Japanese occupation of”. Do we really want these pieces listed under “Europe, German occupation of”?

Germanic_Collector101

Hi all I'm looking to have the coins and currency of the Ober Ost moved under Germany (similar to how the German states are) as the Ober Ost was German

Here's a link to the information 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ober_Ost

This suggestion will not be implemented  because the intended area of circulation of the coins was NOT in Germany, but in an area that encompasses parts of the modern nations of Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus and Poland.

This is why it was set up as a stand-alone issuer.

ceh2019

We can also put these banknote issues there.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-3.html#c_allemagne-pre1945253

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-3.html#c_allemagne-pre194510434

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-4.html#c_allemagne-pre194510435

I agree that the rouble denominated notes seem to be issued under the same authority and belong there.

tdziemia

ceh2019

We can also put these banknote issues there.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-3.html#c_allemagne-pre1945253

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-3.html#c_allemagne-pre194510434

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-4.html#c_allemagne-pre194510435

I agree that the rouble denominated notes seem to be issued under the same authority and belong there.

That's fine but we can't use the name “Ober Ost”, since the notes were issued by the Ostbank für Handel und Gewerbe, Darlehnskasse Ost. If we apply the same logic to the other issues I listed, surely we either have one issuer of German Occupied Territories or two, one for each war.

Will discuss this suggestion in the admin team.

ceh2019 OstBank für Handel und Gewerbe Darlehnskasse Ost is just a banking system run by the Ober Ost, Ober Ost is also their official name, well a short form but still

tdziemia

ceh2019

We can also put these banknote issues there.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-3.html#c_allemagne-pre1945253

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-3.html#c_allemagne-pre194510434

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/allemagne-pre1945-banknotes-4.html#c_allemagne-pre194510435

I agree that the rouble denominated notes seem to be issued under the same authority and belong there.

That's fine but we can't use the name “Ober Ost”, since the notes were issued by the Ostbank für Handel und Gewerbe, Darlehnskasse Ost. If we apply the same logic to the other issues I listed, surely we either have one issuer of German Occupied Territories or two, one for each war.

Germanic_Collector101

ceh2019 OstBank für Handel und Gewerbe Darlehnskasse Ost is just a banking system run by the Ober Ost, Ober Ost is also their official name, well a short form but still

Is there evidence that this bank was controlled by the Oberbefehlshaber? There's no mention of this on the notes and this website says it was created under that name in 1898. What about the Darlehnskasse Ost that issued the notes denominated in Mark?

I'll have to find the site again

@tdziemia was it finished ?

I see the currencies were added.

I changed the name to German Occupied Territories for the time being. As for the placement, that will have to wait a bit, until we establish some more catalogue linking options.

I do think this is the best place for these issues. I would also suggest that these two coins:

N#6312

N#8571

and these six notes:

N#208955

N#207449

N#208957

N#203665

N#206500

N#206485

which only circulated in WWII German occupied territories be moved there.

ceh2019

I do think this is the best place for these issues. I would also suggest that these two coins:

N#6312

N#8571

and these six notes:

N#208955

N#207449

N#208957

N#203665

N#206500

N#206485

which only circulated in WWII German occupied territories be moved there.

These were structured under a different system, The Ober Ost was a military government, the Reichkreditkassenschein was produced under the German Empire  during WWII and not by a different organisation

Germanic_Collector101

These were structured under a different system, The Ober Ost was a military government, the Reichkreditkassenschein was produced under the German Empire  during WWII and not by a different organisation

Clearly, the WWII coins and notes would be in a different currency (the Reichsmark) but, otherwise, they are very similar to the WWI notes, which were issued by the Darlehnskasse Ost. Only the WWI coins were issued by the military.

ceh2019

Germanic_Collector101

These were structured under a different system, The Ober Ost was a military government, the Reichkreditkassenschein was produced under the German Empire  during WWII and not by a different organisation

Clearly, the WWII coins and notes would be in a different currency (the Reichsmark) but, otherwise, they are very similar to the WWI notes, which were issued by the Darlehnskasse Ost. Only the WWI coins were issued by the military.

The Darlenskasse are not the same as the Ober Ost

Germanic_Collector101

The Darlenskasse are not the same as the Ober Ost

No one's say they are the same, nor is anyone saying the Reichskreditkasse is the same. What I'm pointing out is that all three were issued in the German occupied territories and should be placed in that issuer. That wasn't possible when the issuer was called “Ober Ost” but it isn't anymore.

ceh2019

Germanic_Collector101

The Darlenskasse are not the same as the Ober Ost

No one's say they are the same, nor is anyone saying the Reichskreditkasse is the same. What I'm pointing out is that all three were issued in the German occupied territories and should be placed in that issuer. That wasn't possible when the issuer was called “Ober Ost” but it isn't anymore.

Well now that this issuer has been transformed into “German Occupied Territories”, you are correct that all these coins and banknotes now belong together under the same issuer.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the issues of Ober Ost and the WWII issues had a vastly different circulation area, with the Ober Ost ones having a clearly defininable issuer and circulation area. So now, to be accurate as to what is defined as an issuer, we would need to recreate Ober Ost as a sub-issuer to the German Occupied Territories (which is fine… the WWII ones needed their own issuer anyways, just separate from Ober Ost).

Although it might be better to just revert German Occupied Territories back to Ober Ost, then create a new “German Occupied Territories” issuer and move Ober Ost under it, as the flag, description, currencies, and hyperlink all reflect Ober Ost.

DanzigCoins

Or we could make it something like that:

 German Occupied Territories

  → During World War 1

  → During World War 2

I think something like that would be better than dividing it by region.

This is exactly what we need. I posted something similar after this quote, but to make it more clear as to what we would need to accomodate both issuer:

German Occupied Territories

— Ober Ost (and Warsaw)

— Europe, German occupation of

So here are two Wiki articles about the Obst Ost currencies. Both of them clearly specify they circulated in the Ober Ost area; using the name Ober Ost isn't a problem as this does indeed define a geographical area (and I'm not sure why this is even a debate, honestly).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ostrubel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ostmark

In regards to the exact naming, we have went with “Ober Ost”, but I think “Ober Ost and Warsaw” would be more accurate. Just read the original creation request to understand why (athough I think this issuer coming back into existance is more important than the exact specifications of its name):

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic138755.html

In regards to the the WWII issues, we are talking about banknotes that were valid in counties like Poland, Norway, Belgium, France, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. That's why I said vastly different earlier in this post. I don't think we have one clear way to name this geographical area; however, the only similar naming I can think of would be “Oceania, Japanese occupation of,” so I think “Europe, German occupation of” would suffice. Perhaps “Europe, German WWII occupation of” would be a bit clearer, but I personally don't think that addition is too necessary (still an option though, so still putting it out there).

I'd be happy to see German Occupied Territories subdivided into WWI and WWII. Ober Ost is a nickname given to some of the areas occupied during WWI, so isn't an appropriate name for an issuer. As Sulfur points out, the rubel circulated beyond the region commanded by the Oberbefehlshabers Ost, so it's best to keep this a simple and accurate as possible.

ceh2019

Ober Ost is a nickname given to some of the areas occupied during WWI, so isn't an appropriate name for an issuer.

Unfrotunately, I still don't agree. Ober Ost is a perfectly acceptable way to refer to this area, which plenty of online sources would agree with. I imagine it is similar to how Numista calls the “United States of America” just the “United States”--it's a perfectly acceptable also-known-as name.

Of course, when searching for this issuer, we could add “Oberbefehlshabers Ost” (or any other alternatives) as searchable names, to help increase the searchability of the catalogue, if someone really wishes to search this issuer by that name. We could also expand the description of this issuer to include the full German name--I see no problems there. But as “Ober Ost" is a completely acceptable way to refer to this region, and as it is both the simplest and likely most well-known name by English speakers, I think that would be the most ideal way to name this issuer.

ceh2019

Germanic_Collector101

The Darlenskasse are not the same as the Ober Ost

No one's say they are the same, nor is anyone saying the Reichskreditkasse is the same. What I'm pointing out is that all three were issued in the German occupied territories and should be placed in that issuer. That wasn't possible when the issuer was called “Ober Ost” but it isn't anymore.

The Darlenskassenshein notes page literally states that they were used in Germany, not occupied territories…

They were used as a defacto currency used parallel to the Goldmark

That text comes from the Darlenskassensheine issued by the Reichsschuldenverwaltung (e.g., this note). We're talking about the issues of the Ostbank für Handel und Gewerbe, Darlehnskasse Ost.

Sulfur

Unfrotunately, I still don't agree. Ober Ost is a perfectly acceptable way to refer to this area, which plenty of online sources would agree with. I imagine it is similar to how Numista calls the “United States of America” just the “United States”--it's a perfectly acceptable also-known-as name.

 

Of course, when searching for this issuer, we could add “Oberbefehlshabers Ost” (or any other alternatives) as searchable names, to help increase the searchability of the catalogue, if someone really wishes to search this issuer by that name. We could also expand the description of this issuer to include the full German name--I see no problems there. But as “Ober Ost" is a completely acceptable way to refer to this region, and as it is both the simplest and likely most well-known name by English speakers, I think that would be the most ideal way to name this issuer.

True, we do use United States rather than the full name. Given that isn't a unique title, we should give the full name. Apart from “Ober Ost” being a nickname, we've already established that the notes circulated more widely, so it still wouldn't be appropriate.

ceh2019

That text comes from the Darlenskassensheine issued by the Reichsschuldenverwaltung (e.g., this note). We're talking about the issues of the Ostbank für Handel und Gewerbe, Darlehnskasse Ost.

This is the exact page I got that text from… literally from the German “loan” notes

N#202163

ceh2019

Apart from “Ober Ost” being a nickname, we've already established that the notes circulated more widely, so it still wouldn't be appropriate.

Assuming you are only talking about the Governorate of Warsaw, the simplest and most accurate name would be, as I mentioned above: Ober Ost and Warsaw.

On a separate note (and assuming an admin sees this message), I would like to request this thread to be re-opened, just because we do, indeed, need more issuers here, and all information relevant to them is within this thread. Final say would obviously be on an admin-level, as to what is created and what the names are; however, this thread could potentially get lost if remained closed.  :)

Germanic_Collector101

ceh2019

That text comes from the Darlenskassensheine issued by the Reichsschuldenverwaltung (e.g., this note). We're talking about the issues of the Ostbank für Handel und Gewerbe, Darlehnskasse Ost.

This is the exact page I got that text from… literally from the German “loan” notes

N#202163

In which case, it's irrelevant to this discussion, as it is not one of the notes issued in the occupied territories. All the WWI notes have already been moved to the new issuer. The Reichsschuldenverwaltung notes are not going to be moved.

Sulfur

Assuming you are only talking about the Governorate of Warsaw, the simplest and most accurate name would be, as I mentioned above: Ober Ost and Warsaw.

We could use this name as the subtitle for the WWI issues within German Occupied Territories, perhaps with “(WWI)” added?

This discussion and decision was totally unjustified, started by members who completely ignored that every German coin catalogue groups these coins under “Ober Ost“, and now because of a whim somehow they have got it changed so that it makes more sense to them. I think the fact that this area and coinage was complicated due to it spanning a strange area meant that categorising them under Ober Ost was the most logical decision.

On the logic of this change, can we change Canadian coins to 2 sections under Britischen and Französische Überseegebieten? 

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic169916.html

King

This discussion and decision was totally unjustified, started by members who completely ignored that every German coin catalogue groups these coins under “Ober Ost“, and now because of a whim somehow they have got it changed so that it makes more sense to them. I think the fact that this area and coinage was complicated due to it spanning a strange area meant that categorising them under Ober Ost was the most logical decision.

 

On the logic of this change, can we change Canadian coins to 2 sections under Britischen and Französische Überseegebieten? 

 

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic169916.html

 

While I understand, the coins and currency were produced under the German Occupational Government (Oberbefehlshaber der gesamten Deutschen Streitkräfte im Osten, or Ober OST) it similar to the Reichskreditkassenschein should've been marked under German Authority, at least in my opinion