Merging Australian types [solved]

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This message aims at: requesting the modification of a coin in the catalogue

Status: Done
Upvotes: 5
Downvotes: 0

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Hi all, I have seen these 3 merchant tokens listed that seem to be the exact same type (dimensions, design, even lettering). Even if varieties exist I think they should be merged into one page. 

 

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces17320.html

N#415153

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces238196.html 

 

Thank you

Kenny

- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.

Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.

@mike c 

Your thoughts on this observation by KennyG

 

Mike

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

This page has most of the info: N#415153 

Catalogue administrator

I'm just waiting for a response from mike c .. I have sent him a private message.

 

Then we will sort these out - Cheers Mike

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

Yeah, I forgot to wrote that I would wait as well.

Catalogue administrator

I haven't heard back from mike c for a while now. I suspect he is taking a break from Numista. So I will decide what to do with these shortly.

 

Mike

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

OK this is my solution. Keep >>>> N#415153 

and move owners of medals on the other pages to this page (N# 415153).

 

So …

Delete >>>> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces238196.html

Move the 7 members who have the 1857 Medal to the 1857 line on >>>> N#415153

Move the 3 members who have the 1858 Medal to the 1858 Undetermined line on N#415153

 

And

Delete >>>> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces17320.html

Move the 21 members who have the 1857 Medal to the 1857 line on >>>> N#415153

Move the 25 members who have the 1858 Medal to the 1858 Undetermined line on N#415153

 

I will add the pictures of the Medals from the pages to be deleted as examples on the page we are keeping. 😃

This should clean up the triplicates. If and when @mike c, who is a bit of an expert on these pre federation medals, returns we can make further adjustments as required. 😇

 

ps - Thanks @KennyG for spotting them. 😁

 

Regards Mike

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 
Status changed to Started (Jarcek, 10 Tem 2024, 16:59)

Been away in the Kimberley's (West Australia) and Perth for last three weeks. No computer, lucky to have phone connection. Survived the Gibb River Road and the snapping handbags. Will review when I get a chance. Thanks for thinking of me. Regards

MC

Glad to have you back Mike

Kenny

- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.

Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.

mike c

Been away in the Kimberley's (West Australia) and Perth for last three weeks. No computer, lucky to have phone connection. Survived the Gibb River Road and the snapping handbags. 

Hmmm i was wondering what the snapping handbags might be but is it one of these?

 

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

Hello!

I tried to find a new forum about duplicate pages for the same coins, but they were all closed.
Please send a link to the new forum about duplicates, because... I see two pages with the same coin:

1 Dollar - Elizabeth II (The Simpson Family) - Tuvalu – Numista

1 Dollar - Elizabeth II (The Simpsons Family) - Tuvalu – Numista

Regards.Alex

Alex

dgania

Hello!

I tried to find a new forum about duplicate pages for the same coins, but they were all closed.
Please send a link to the new forum about duplicates, because... I see two pages with the same coin:

1 Dollar - Elizabeth II (The Simpson Family) - Tuvalu – Numista

1 Dollar - Elizabeth II (The Simpsons Family) - Tuvalu – Numista

Regards.Alex

Done

Please check the same coins:
2 Dollars (Humpback Whale) - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines – Numista

2 Dollars (Humpback Whale) - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines – Numista

 

Regards. Alex

Alex

dgania

Please check the same coins:
2 Dollars (Humpback Whale) - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines – Numista

2 Dollars (Humpback Whale) - Saint Vincent and the Grenadines – Numista

 

Regards. Alex

Done

brismike

mike c

Been away in the Kimberley's (West Australia) and Perth for last three weeks. No computer, lucky to have phone connection. Survived the Gibb River Road and the snapping handbags. 

Hmmm i was wondering what the snapping handbags might be but is it one of these?

 

That's them.

regards

MC

brismike

OK this is my solution. Keep >>>> N#415153 

and move owners of medals on the other pages to this page (N# 415153).

 

So …

Delete >>>> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces238196.html

Move the 7 members who have the 1857 Medal to the 1857 line on >>>> N#415153

Move the 3 members who have the 1858 Medal to the 1858 Undetermined line on N#415153

 

And

Delete >>>> https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces17320.html

Move the 21 members who have the 1857 Medal to the 1857 line on >>>> N#415153

Move the 25 members who have the 1858 Medal to the 1858 Undetermined line on N#415153

 

I will add the pictures of the Medals from the pages to be deleted as examples on the page we are keeping. 😃

This should clean up the triplicates. If and when @mike c, who is a bit of an expert on these pre federation medals, returns we can make further adjustments as required. 😇

 

ps - Thanks @KennyG for spotting them. 😁

 

Regards Mike

 

All good except I would ask the following:

N# 415151 was set up for the 1857 Penny Tokens

N# 415153 was set up for the 1858 Penny Tokens in that series.

Suggest:

1) an Undetermined line be added to  N# 415151.

2) the 1857 line be removed/deleted from  N# 415153

 

Then the various 1857 and 1858 tokens from members can be distributed to the correct images and types.

Following which N#17320 and N#238196 and their images should be retired (suggest also that the images should not be reused less able to identify clearly which variety of 1857 tokens they are) .

thanks

MC

Hello!

Can someone confirm the new coin? Been waiting for a referee for over two weeks now...

Creation request – Numista
Regards. Alex

Alex

dgania

Hello!

Can someone confirm the new coin? Been waiting for a referee for over two weeks now...

Creation request – Numista
Regards. Alex

Not sure what your message has to do with this thread regarding merging Australian Types?

Not only that, only you and the referee for the coin/Creation Request you hyperlinked to can see it, I certainly can't?

 

Mike

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

Back to the topic at hand, what is the consensus on these pages?

Kenny

- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.

Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.

As per mike c's suggestion ….

 

N# 415151 was set up for the 1857 Penny Tokens

N# 415153 was set up for the 1858 Penny Tokens in that series.

So we are keeping 2 pages as there are differences in the 1857 & 1858 tokens.

 

Suggest:

1) an Undetermined line be added to  N# 415151.

2) the 1857 line be removed/deleted from  N# 415153

I have done this on the relevant pages.

 

All we need to do now is Delete >>>> N#238196

Move the 7 members who have the 1857 Medal to the Undetermined line on >>>> N#415151

Move the 3 members who have the 1858 Medal to the Undetermined line on N#415153

 

Then

Delete >>>> N#17320

Move the 21 members who have the 1857 Medal to the Undertermined line on >>>> N#415151

Move the 25 members who have the 1858 Medal to the Undetermined line on N#415153

 

Needs an admin to complete this request.

 

Mike 

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

Can you describe differences between 1857 and 1858 tokens?

@mike c

 

Can you answer Compendiums question please?

 

Mike

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

The types are nearly identical, I don't see how the 57 and 58 warrant two separate pages

Kenny

- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.

Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.

Apols for delay in answering, only just found this request for comment. 😶

These tokens are not like coins where one year is the same as the next and only the year changes, (sorry had to get my dig in here). 

 

As per the comments on each page this series is complex and when initially beginning in my collecting of these tokens I gave up for a while on this issuer especially when the auction house that I used to obtain my tokens from would often make mistakes on the identification and thus I could not be sure what I was actually bidding on.

 

The major Australian catalogues - Andrews and Rennik give individual numbers for each different die combination. Gray (the latest researcher) sorts them into four types. These are as follows:

G107 - 1857 Penny

G108 - 1857 Half penny

G109 - 1858 Penny

G110 - 1859 Half Penny

 

By allowing a separate page for each type as proposed the identification is simpler for less experienced collectors starting with: Is it a Penny or half penny, then what year, then what type.

If all too hard the Undetermined line is ideal especially for those items that are corroded, the collector does not have access to a catalogue for clearer diagrams, or an item in the collection was entered when there was only one page for this complex series. 

Having a separate page for the eleven or so penny tokens is my actual preference but have to work with what is there as I do not have a full set of images to contribute. I believe a page for each of the four types is a good middle solution that will suffice until better images and marked diagrams can be provided.

Regards

MC 

 

As per the Notes I added when creating the type pages:

G107 series 1857 Dated penny

G107 A227/ R223 - Obv 1; Rev A

G107a A229/ R221 - Obv 2; Rev B

G107b A230/ R219 - Obv 3; Rev B

G107c A231/ R220 - Obv 3; Rev A

Rarity: R2; R3-4; R2; R2-3.

 

 Obv 1: Lions Paws above L, 2nd T of Street opp N

Obv 2: Lions Paws opp L, T between NT

Obv 3:  Lions Paws at E, T between TS

 

Rev A: V to right of Head, pans level with back of E

Rev B: V mostly above Head, Pans slightly below back of E

 

G109 series 1857 Dated penny

G109 A236/ R227 - Obv 1 ; Rev C

G109a A237/ R229 - Obv 4; Rev D

G109b A238/ R228 - Obv 4; Rev C

G109c A240/ R230 - Obv 5; Rev D

G109d A241/ R231 - Obv 5; Rev C

G109e A243/ R232? - Obv 4: Rev E

G109f A244/R233? - Obv 4; Rev F

Rarity: R2-3; R1; R3; R3; R5; R1; R3-4.

 

Obv 1: Lions Paws above L, 2nd T of Street opp N

Obv 4: Lions Paws between EL, T just below T

Obv 5:  Lions Paws at L, T opposite T

 

Rev C: Comma after MELB, full stop after VIC. pans slightly below back of E

Rev D: Comma after MELB, full stop after VIC. pans level with back of E

Rev E: Full stop after MELB, pans below back of E, E is closer to rim beads than scale pan

Rev F: Full stop after MELB, pans below back of E, E is midway between rim beads than scale pan

You may argue that we maybe should keep 2 pages for the 57 & 58 but whether all these sub variants deserve a separate page is another matter.

 

These could all be accommodated as comments on the mintage lines. I don't think we need multiple pages for very minor differences.

 

If there are minor differences in the actual design and pics are available of those different types showing the differences, they could be added as Examples on the page in the same way these different mintmarked/privymarked/counterstamped versions of this Australian dollar coin are…

 

 N#42702

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/examples.php?id=42702

 

Mike

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

I would say that it is ok to go into details on yearlines - people can always use undetermined. But I also think that we should not add new type page for these minor changes.

Catalogue administrator

Agree, currently happy with those four pages, currently no need to go further but would support more pages later if needed.

regards

MC

I think I'm missing something between N#415151 and N#415153 , even though there are notable die varieties for each year, the only real difference between the two “types” are larger and smaller text. Should it really be 4 types instead of 2?

Kenny

- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.

Check out my Facebook, Kenneth Gucyski.

Sorry, meant

Page 1 - G107 - 1857 Penny

Page 2 - G108 - 1857 Half penny

Page 3 - G109 - 1858 Penny

Page 4 - G110 - 1859 Half Penny

 

Two pages for the pennies, two for the half pennies.

Aligns with Gray, able to fit all of the Andrews and Rinniks in a logical way.

 

regards

MC

My understanding is that based on guidelines we should have 2 pages only: penny and ½ penny

Guidelines are guidelines; and made for coins and banknotes where they mostly work. 

 

Coins are made for yearly repeating with just the year changed and fit nicely into your guidelines and catalogues. These do not fit so nicely and should be considered on a case by case situation especially if you wish collectors to use the Numista catalogue effectively.

 

These are tokens, accepted as coins (reluctantly in many cases), issued by merchants not governments, and made with one off or limited dies with lower production standards. The amount of die cracks is an indicator of poor heat treatment and manufacturing tokens past the die life. There is also an interesting reuse of identifiable different dies for different issuers.  New items are still being identified and old items discredited. The key I think is suitable images and a decision tree as set out in the four pages to allow quick identification. If your token is already identified, again quick access to the right page rather than looking through twenty or so lines. I refer you to H. J. Hall - Grocer - Christchurch - Identification Guide - Tokens of Australia (coinsandaustralia.com) which is a useful identification process that I would love to have in Numista.

For these tokens when I was trying to review the Hide and De Carle set, two pages were not enough and confusing, four aligned with useable groupings for identification (Gray), but I think more would allow better identification, align with Other Catalogues (Andrews, RenniKs, Peck etc), and I've noted would allow better access to search engines for individual tokens especially those with images. 

 

There are numerous exceptions to the guidelines elsewhere and I think Numista is the richer for that as it allows a fuller picture and generally makes it more useable. As stated, I'm ok with four as it is workable and an improvement on the existing pages which were a mess.

 

I am ⅔ of the way though reviewing and adding to the A&NZ Tradesmen series. The challenge is that there are other ‘difficult’ sets in this series and I have yet to come to grips with how to fit them into Numista while describing them accurately. Something for a long rainy day as it will not be easy.

 

By the way the main differences between the pennies relate to both obverse and reverse dies with the reverse dies used for other issuers as well. One way of keeping costs down!

 

regards

MC

Hello,

 

just want to bump this topic, as we have a similar request

As I asked above the below needs to be done to fix this.

 

All we need to do now is Delete >>>> N#238196

Move the 7 members who have the 1857 Medal to the Undetermined line on >>>> N#415151

Move the 3 members who have the 1858 Medal to the Undetermined line on N#415153

 

Then

Delete >>>> N#17320

Move the 22 members who have the 1857 Medal to the Undetermined line on >>>> N#415151

Move the 25 members who have the 1858 Medal to the Undetermined line on N#415153

 

I Need an admin to complete this request please.

 

Mike

 

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

brismike

As I asked above the below needs to be done to fix this.

 

All we need to do now is Delete >>>> N#238196

Move the 7 members who have the 1857 Medal to the Undetermined line on >>>> N#415151

Move the 3 members who have the 1858 Medal to the Undetermined line on N#415153

 

Then

Delete >>>> N#17320

Move the 22 members who have the 1857 Medal to the Undetermined line on >>>> N#415151

Move the 25 members who have the 1858 Medal to the Undetermined line on N#415153

 

I Need an admin to complete this request please.

 

Mike

 

Done as suggested, can you put please references per mintage line in the pages above?

Status changed to Done (ArsenEverlast, 31 Ekim 2024, 17:52)

ArsenEverlast

 

 

Done as suggested, can you put please references per mintage line in the pages above?

@ArsenEverlast  - I can't see where the members have been moved yet as per the request above?

 

Mike

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

2 pages were removed and users were moved, for example 

 

Move the 22 members who have the 1857 Medal to the Undetermined line on >>>> N#415151 

 

and we have 27 members on Undetermined line there

 

Move the 25 members who have the 1858 Medal to the Undetermined line on >>>> N#415153

 

and we have 27 members on Undetermined line  there

 

deleted pages are forwarding to existing pages

Ok thanks Arson  - I think it is because when I look at the old pages that were forwarded I see the members still on there, but they arn't actually on there, they are actually on the new pages. 🙂

 

Thanks for your good work.

 

Cheers Mike

Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
 

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