Correcting Russian and Soviet Currencies

There have been several forum attempts to correct the Russian and Soviet currencies (see here and here) but they keep on being ignored or lost among other discussions. We need the following:

1st Ruble, Until 1922
2nd Ruble, 1922-1923 (worth 10,000 1st Ruble)
Chervonets, 1922-1924
3rd Ruble, 1923-1924 (worth 100 2nd Ruble)
4th Ruble, 1924-1947 ("Gold Ruble" worth 50,000 3rd Ruble and 1/10 chervonets)
5th Ruble, 1947-1961 (worth 10 4th Ruble, coins unchanged)
6th Ruble, 1961-1998 (worth 10 5th Ruble, low-denomination coins unchanged)
7th Ruble, Since 1998 (worth 1000 6th Ruble)

The first two ruble were used before the foundation of the USSR, the third ruble and chervonets span the creation of the USSR, the fourth and fifth ruble were only issued by the USSR, the sixth spanned the end of the USSR and the seventh is the present Russian currency. Based on previous discussions, we may want to have a combined currency for coins of the fourth and fifth ruble, since no change occured to the coins in 1947. In 1961, only the 1, 2, 3 and 5 kopek coins were unchanged.

We currently ignore all the currency reforms except for 1924, 1961 and 1998 but we also have a fictitious currency reform in 1991.

I created a link to this discussion on the coin forum which is where the discussion has begun. Would those who have downvoted this correction please explain their position?

Since the only comments seem to have missed the point of the currency field, it would be nice if these corrections were implemented. In case there is any doubt, pehaps I can point out the following? On the reverse of this 1922 note, the text states that this ruble is equal to 10,000 of the previous ruble. Simlilarly, this 1923 note states that this ruble is worth 1 million withdrawn ruble or 100 of the 1922 ruble. Nevertheless, these two notes currently sit alongside each other as if they had equivalent values. Sadly, the later currency reforms weren't set out on the notes. However, links to descriptions of these later reforms can be found in this earlier discussion.

Once this is done, we'll still need to sort out what was issued before and after the founding of the USSR, since we have a lot of Russian notes currently listed in the Soviet Union. My hope is that, once the currencies are sorted, it will be easier to get the country name right.

Here are the years that I believe are correct based on my research and knowledge of Russian currency. The currencies before 1924 are particularly complicated and nuanced. If it becomes necessary, I can provide which notes need to be in each currency for swift implementation.

Imperial Rouble, Until 1922
First Soviet Rouble, 1917-1922
Second Soviet Rouble “Gold Rouble”, 1922-1924 (1/10 Chervonets)
Third Soviet Rouble, 1923-1924 (worth 1 000 000 First Soviet Roubles)
Fourth Soviet Rouble, 1924-1947 (worth 50 000 Third Soviet Roubles and 1 Gold Rouble)
Fifth Soviet Rouble, 1947-1960 (worth 10 Foruth Soviet Roubles, coins unchanged)
Sixth Soviet Rouble, 1961-1991/1992/1993 (depending on country) (worth 10 Fifth Soviet Roubles, low-denomination coins unchanged) 

First Russian Rouble, 1992-1997 (at par with Seventh Soviet Rouble)

Second Russian Rouble, 1998-Present (worth 1 000 First Russian Roubles)

Daniel

Voided_Username01

Here are the years that I believe are correct based on my research and knowledge of Russian currency. The currencies before 1924 are particularly complicated and nuanced. If it becomes necessary, I can provide which notes need to be in each currency for swift implementation.

 

Imperial Rouble, Until 1922
First Soviet Rouble, 1917-1922
Second Soviet Rouble “Gold Rouble”, 1922-1924 (1/10 Chervonets)
Third Soviet Rouble, 1923-1924 (worth 1 000 000 First Soviet Roubles)
Fourth Soviet Rouble, 1924-1947 (worth 50 000 Third Soviet Roubles and 1 Gold Rouble)
Fifth Soviet Rouble, 1947-1960 (worth 10 Foruth Soviet Roubles, coins unchanged)
Sixth Soviet Rouble, 1961-1991/1992/1993 (depending on country) (worth 10 Fifth Soviet Roubles, low-denomination coins unchanged) 

First Russian Rouble, 1992-1997 (at par with Seventh Soviet Rouble)

Second Russian Rouble, 1998-Present (worth 1 000 First Russian Roubles)

 

Daniel

There are several differences between this list and the one I provided. We won't use names like “First” or “Imperial” in the final currencies, so they are only there for now to help see the progression. The first difference is your “First Soviet Rouble”. The notes issued between 1917 and 1922 were the same currency as the earlier issues and the country was still called Russia, so there's no need for a new currency starting in 1917. You then have “Second Soviet Rouble 'Gold Rouble'”. In fact, this covers two distinct ruble, one introduced in 1922 and the other in 1923. These are the two I described in my earlier post, neither of which were called the "Gold Ruble". The Chervonets was a distinct currency (nominally backed by gold) when first issued in 1922. Your “Third Ruble” is correct but your “Fourth Ruble” is in fact the “Gold Ruble” (see here for an example) which was set at 1/10 of a Chervonets. After that, we agree.

When we get the countries set up correctly, we'll need the following:

Russia, Until 1922

1st Ruble, Until 1922
2nd Ruble, 1922-1923 (worth 10,000 1st Ruble)
Chervonets, 1922-1924 (only notes dated 1922)
3rd Ruble, 1923 (worth 100 2nd Ruble)

USSR, 1923-1992
3rd Ruble, 1923-1924 (continuation of the Russian currency)
4th Ruble, 1924-1947 ("Gold Ruble" worth 50,000 3rd Ruble and 1/10 chervonets)
5th Ruble, 1947-1961 (worth 10 4th Ruble, coins unchanged)
6th Ruble, 1961-1992 (worth 10 5th Ruble, low-denomination coins unchanged)

Russia, 1992-
6th Ruble, 1992-1998 (continuation of the Soviet currency)
7th Ruble, Since 1998 (worth 1000 6th Ruble)

If needed, I can provide a full list of the coins and notes that will fit into each currency but it would be easier simply to set them up, move the pieces to the right place, then let everyone check for errors. One apparent anomaly are the coins produced by the RSFSR before the creation of the USSR, which were issued in 1924 as part of the 4th ruble. We currently have them listed under the USSR based on when they were issued rather than when they were produced. However, as long as a comment explaining this is given, we can leave them as they are.

If you assign the first to “Until 1922”, you would have to rename whole tree when somebody asks for more granular imperial coinage.

The first ruble as a coin and not as measure of weight in silver was introduced by Peter I. 1701 to 1922 is a lot of history and lots of reasons to make changes in monetary system. Even Peter The Great could not do it “right” on first try. You still insist to introduce new generations when commies devalue ruble, but refuse to do so when czars do that.

There's a difference between devaluing a currency by reducing the amount of silver in the coins (as done by the czars) and revaluing by replacing one currency with another of the same name at a fixed exchange rate (as done by the communists and Yeltsin). Compare the situation in France. The franc was devalued multiple times after 1914 but we only split in 1960 when the new franc was introduced worth 100 old francs.

If there is a need for further divisions before 1922, please present the evidence but please don't use that as a reason not to implement the proper currencies post 1922. We currently have a split between “Rouble (1533-1717)” and “Rouble (1700-1917)”. Perhaps you could begin by explaining that split? I'm not suggesting it's wrong, but the dates don't seem to make sense.

ceh2019

We currently have a split between “Rouble (1533-1717)” and “Rouble (1700-1917)”. Perhaps you could begin by explaining that split? I'm not suggesting it's wrong, but the dates don't seem to make sense.

1533 - start of Ivan IV reign. He did proclaim Russian czardom only in 1547. First Russian Czar.

1700 - Monetary reform by Peter the Great. Shave some beards and switch from wire kopeks to regular round coins. Country was big and slightly out of sync with The West. Took some time to finish. I am not into Russian history to dig when he demonetized wire currency by law. Introducing copper kopeks (plus ½ kopek and ¼ kopek with old names). Introducing higher nomination silver coins (altin/3k, grivenik/10k, polupoltinik/25k, poltina/50k). Silver ruble coin introduced with weight matching thaler. Gold chervonets (matching ducat in weight) minted to finance country reforms and war with major power.

1718 - second reform. Stop minting wire kopeks thus ending “ruble 1533-1717” period. Reduced amount of silver in ruble to deal with consequences of fighting a major. That quacks like devaluation to me. Set ratio between gold and silver ruble by introducing golden 2 rubles.

1721 - Peter proclaims himself emperor. Start of Russian Empire.

If numista had better catalogue layout, you would see 1700-1717 switch yourself.

Thanks for the clarification. In that case, we need to look at the descriptions of the “Rouble (1533-1717)” and “Rouble (1700-1917)” since they are currently identical:

2 Polushka = 1 Denga • 2 Denga = 1 Kopeck • 3 Kopecks = 1 Altyn • 10 Kopecks = 1 Grivna (Grivennik) • 25 Kopecks = 1 Polupoltina (Polupoltinnik) • 50 Kopecks = 1 Poltina • 100 Kopecks = 1 Rouble • 10 Roubles = 1 Imperial

How much of this does not apply to the first currency?

Continue here https://en.numista.com/forum/topic112593.html