50 + 100 Mark Bavaria 1924 [solved]

Hello, these two: 

N#307724

N#368155 

moved recently to German Notgeld for some reason but they don't belong there as they were given after the currency cut in 1924 as regular German banknotes, so they should go back to Germany 1871-1948. Any reason why they came into the Notgeld section? 

Best Regards,

Michael

@pcoetzee, @ajbbarbados,can you help us clarify this issue? =)

Silberschatz

Hello, these two: 

 

N#307724

N#368155 

 

moved recently to German Notgeld for some reason but they don't belong there as they were given after the currency cut in 1924 as regular German banknotes, so they should go back to Germany 1871-1948. Any reason why they came into the Notgeld section? 

 

Best Regards,

Michael

This is part of a much wider problem, where many coins and notes, issued below the national level, are being lumped together as “notgeld”. Most are nothing of the kind, such as these two notes. We need to remove this section altogether and simply put the coins and notes in the correct locations. In this case, a single Bavarian section is required, covering all issues of the Duchy, Electorate, Kingdom and Free State. This section would also have subdivisions for the more local issues.

It's not that absolute. For Germany, there is just a category missing for federal states banknotes 1871-1948, because they are not Notgeld, they were regular issues over decades. Those are not that many, only a few dozen from a handfull of states, compared to thousands of Notgeld issues from hundreds of issuers. They should be integrated in the regular Germany 1871-1948 section as it has been before. Notgeld is called Notgeld bc it came from issuers, that were not allowed to give banknotes before, but the federal Länderbanken like Bavaria, Baden, Saxony etc. were ofc allowed to issue banknotes at any time. So this two categories should be strictly separated.

The problem with the current arrangement is that we have an “issuer”, German Notgeld, which is a type of issue rather than an actual issuer. Most of the pieces within this section are not Notgeld. Take the very first coin listed, a Kleingeldersatzmarke, not a Notgeld. We also have many Kriegsgeld and Gutschein. I did eventually find an example of a Notgeld, but it's far from easy, given that so many pieces are mislabelled.

We need to get back to issuers actually being issuers. Wrongly integrating a few of the mis-labelled notes into Germany (instead of putting them in their correct Länder) won't fix the problem. However, the fix isn't too difficult, since the so-called Notgeld are grouped by Land and Prussian province. We just need to link all the states pre- and post-1918 and the job is mostly done.

Hello! It has been more than three weeks since we received any feedback from the referee or the proposer of the changes that were made.

@Silberschatz, please see what needs to be changed and request the change directly on the registration page, mentioning this forum as a reference. Please keep me informed of the progress.

Thank you!

Keingelderstazmarken (small change substitute tokens) etc. ARE a specific form of Notgeld (emergency money). Notgeld generally refers to alternative currency issued by cities, municipality, businesses, or other institutions during times of crisis or cash shortage.

I think of the Notgeld sections as a type of necessary evil. A containment measure to keep the normal issuer clean of hundred if not thousands of sub- and sub-subsections making many of the lists (that appear on the left with your selected ordering) useless and data entry a pain in the ass when you just want to deal with normal official money. Because I believe they don't vanish even if you deselect emergency issues. If this is not the case or can be adressed by a tweak of the Numista code it could be combined from my standpoint.

The larger issue I have with notgeld (specifically German ones) is that the majority is no Notgeld at all. All these (or the majority at least) of these fancy colorful Serienscheine (series notes) that you only see in UNC or near UNC were never intended for circulation nor were they backed by anything and often were even released (or better sold) after their supposed demonetization to collectors.

We even have notes that explicitly state that they are not money and they are still listed as standard or local banknotes.

These were updated to reflect their issuance by the Central Bank in Bavaria, but I understand the issues highlighted regarding notes listed as notgeld in the catalog. Some of these larger issuers should perhaps be listed outside of the notgeld category, though this sounds like a bigger alteration that the site needs 

Good morning All

Apologies for having been a bit quiet.

Lets start off with what we use as reference to determine if something is a "Notgeld" or not.  I am not an expert, and will consult my catalogues for information.  As these have been written by experst in the field, I have to rely on their knowledge and know-how.   I have several catalogues of both notes and coins, from several countries and use these to create order in my own collection.

I personally use the general dates of Notgeld as during the time of hyper inflation, just after the First World War and the formation of the Weimar Republic, with Renten Mark.  There are a couple after the Second World War, but significantly less than after WWI, and a lote easier to cataloge.

From my point of view, Notgeld are either small denominations, like this one  N#322161, that was issued for local use, in a town, city, of district.  As well as very large denomination banknotes, normally issued as part of a series, like this one N#398912, for the same purpose.

However, that said, this note was issued by a “Government Authority” and can also be considered as Notgeld N#209316.

Perhaps we should split this group as follows:

1. Into NOTGELD, as the small denominations that were used as a replenishment of the lack of small denamination from the central government. These type of coins and notes N#259166 and N#50392
2. And info INFLATION Money, to show that these were issues as an attempt to kirb inflation. N#447714 and N#32474

We can go as far as to split these groups a little more, but must guard against making it more complex:

1. Notgeld
   1. Towns, cities, regions N#341195 
   2. Private issue N#447397 
   3. Government of provincial issue N#20935 
2. Inflation Money
   1. Towns, cities, regions N#254518 
   2. Private issue N#363095 
   3. Government issue N#367208 

The bottom line is, no matter what we do, we will never make all the collectors happy.  Personally I believe that these coins and notes should be part of this group, but currentyl they are listed under tokens https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=german-notgeld&r=&st=150&cat=y&im1=&im2=&ru=&ie=&ca=3&no=&v=&a=&dg=&i=&b=&m=&f=&t=&t2=&w=&mt=&u=&g=&c=&wi=&sw= and these are listed under paper exonumia https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?e=german-notgeld&r=&st=143&cat=y&im1=&im2=&ru=&ie=&ca=3&no=&v=&a=&dg=&i=&b=&m=&f=&t=&t2=&w=&mt=&u=&g=&c=&wi=&sw=

So I do not have a definitive answer, but only my own opion and what I do in my private overview of my own collection.

Philip

That's a thorough survey, Philip, but it misses one key point. What you are describing are types of notes. This analysis should be used to decide what goes in the type field. The real question is what issuers these notes should be listed under and how those issuers should be grouped and/or subdivided. If we get that right, it will then be far easier to get everything else right. From where we are now, the fix is actually quite simple and painless. We have “German States” and “German notgeld”, which is subdivided according to state. We rename the second to something like “Local Issuers”, still subdivided according to state, and move everything in there that was issued at the state level (e.g., that Bayerische Staatsbank note) into “German States”. We'll need additional ruling authorities and currencies but otherwise there will be very little disruption.

Why will this be better? It will make it clear where to put all of the coins and notes issued in Germany at the sub-national level. We will have a list of issuers who are actually issuers, rather than types of coin/note which, as you've explained, are hard to classify in many cases. It also will unify the issues of banks which span the Empire and Weimar Republic.

Sounds like a good plan. Perhaps when it has been done, we can relook it to make minor adjustments.

At the end of the day, I find, it is easier take move something when you have a framework.  We will not make everyone happy, but perhaps we can get some form of a better understanding.

You have my support in that.