Has this coin been cleaned?

I have the chance to buy this daalder coin. It’s very expensive so before I go through with the purchase I‘m trying to get a consensus on it if appears to have been cleaned before. Some think it has but most say it shows no signs of cleaning.

I think a more pressing question should be is it real?

Does it come with a provenance?

It doesn't appear to have been cleaned, it appears to be new. It does look like a replica to me. 

I think that you should compare it to other examples of the same coin which have been sold by major auction houses, those which are listed on sixbid.com for example. 

Gelderland DAV-4849. Someone at NGC confirmed it to be real. Before that, a handful of people to see it also thought it was a replica.

 Looks new. Similar rather a lot to this > 

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/netherlands-gelderland-lion-daalder-km-15.2-1636-1647-cuid-1083946-duid-1433198 

 Then again, that also looks new. Yes it looks crude, with some wear, 

but that wear looks fake, with the general field too smooth and, more importantly … 

where are the scratches? A coin nearly 300 years old would have a lot of circulation scratches. 

 Yes, old silver can go dark, but that colour does not look like old silver. 

Fake coins can be made from silver, so doing a metal test would not help. 

It is that exact coin. And still, others seem to think it hasn’t been cleaned. One person said it was fake (it wasn’t), and the person that graded it at NGC said it’s been cleaned. Everyone else that’s seen it still disagrees with NGC on it. I want to buy it but I don’t know if I really want it if it’s been cleaned. I want to send it to PCGS raw but I’m afraid of the chance they’ll also say it’s cleaned.

The even, sandy surface all over doesn't look too promising. Worn areas should be smooth. Looks like a fake to me. 

It is the coin on the NGC page so NGC obviously thinks it is authentic.  I think whoever made those pictures “fuzzed out” the image removing the scratches.

nwskeptic89

It is that exact coin. And still, others seem to think it hasn’t been cleaned. One person said it was fake (it wasn’t), and the person that graded it at NGC said it’s been cleaned. Everyone else that’s seen it still disagrees with NGC on it. I want to buy it but I don’t know if I really want it if it’s been cleaned. I want to send it to PCGS raw but I’m afraid of the chance they’ll also say it’s cleaned.

„You want to buy it? NGC  graded it? It is the exact same coin on the NGC Page? And you want to send it RAW to PCGS?“

I ask these questions because of the following;  you don’t have the coin in your possession - so these images are from the seller, or have you taken these images yourself? Where are the images of it in the NGC graded slab? 

Or has it already been removed from the NGC Slab? - because if it has you only have the one option of sending it to PCGS raw. However still your biggest worry is that PCGS will say it is cleaned, even though people have already pointed out it could be fake, that should be your biggest worry…

As for the possibility of it being the exact coin shown on the NGC page; here are two possibilities - NGC posted an image of a counterfeit coin by accident on their website (NGC has many images of counterfeit coins) and anyone or AI could have easily missed that it came from the counterfeit file of images, or the image was simply mislabelled. The second possibility is that the image on the NGC website is of a genuine coin and the coin you wish to buy (imaged without the NGC authenticity) is a counterfeit made from the images copied from the NGC website.

My opinion is that this coin is 100% fake - don’t buy it, or buy it and don’t worry about the fact that someone said it has been cleaned. Which by the way is called the art of deflection in a scam, just to give you a heads up - because scammers are scum!

Probably fake, now the Chineses fake the slabs as well.

Moneytane

Probably fake, now the Chineses fake the slabs as well.

Are you implying the Chinese hacked the NGC site and replaced the NGC pictures with the Chinese pictures?

The coin has never been cleaned, it has not had time, it is recently minted, new and not an imitation, but if it is a fraud - a fake coin.

It's just my opinion from a brief look at the relief and body of the coin.

Ivan

MIMAEL

The coin has never been cleaned, it has not had time, it is recently minted, new and not an imitation, but if it is a fraud - a fake coin.

It's just my opinion from a brief look at the relief and body of the coin.

Ivan

Maybe but I have a hard time believing the NGC is posting pictures of a fake coin as the real thing. Another example:

rsirian1

MIMAEL

The coin has never been cleaned, it has not had time, it is recently minted, new and not an imitation, but if it is a fraud - a fake coin.

It's just my opinion from a brief look at the relief and body of the coin.

Ivan

Maybe but I have a hard time believing the NGC is posting pictures of a fake coin as the real thing. Another example:

It is a copy using the NGC images, look at this area.

King

 

It is a copy using the NGC images, look at this area.

 

Wait….You're saying they used the pictures of the real coin on the NGC site as their pictures for a “coin” they're selling or they created a physical coin copy from the NGC pictures, scratches, defects, wear and all?

rsirian1

King

 

It is a copy using the NGC images, look at this area.

 

Wait….You're saying they used the pictures of the real coin on the NGC site as their pictures for a “coin” they're selling or they created a physical coin copy from the NGC pictures, scratches, defects, wear and all?

Or they copied the actual coin imaged on the NGC website, I don’t know, but they didn’t manage to recreate all the „scratches, defects, wear and all“ as indicated by the highlighted area in my last comment in this post.

Using images to create a 3D model can be done, sending this 3D model to a 3D printer can be done, producing a cast from a 3D printed coin can be done. 

I can believe the pictures are the same pictures but blurred to appear different (or new pictures of the existing pictures). There are just too many examples of minute defects for me to believe they are pictures of different objects or objects made from digitizing a 2D picture without any depth information.  I've highlighted a few that I highly doubt could be recreated.

And, to be honest, my first thought seeing the pictures in the first post was that they were of a fake/counterfeit coin. Now I'm trying to understand how (in my opinion) the pictures are the same as NGC is using. It might help if the OP offers some more information about the sale.

I don’t think the OP will come back with images of the coin with grade (cleaned) for us to verify, if they do it will probably be of the coin imaged on NGC and not the one in this post. There are many details replicated between the two coins, however it is the details which are not replicated that gives the game away, because if it is the coin from NGC (and it is too alike not to be, with all the parts you pointed out) then it should have all the details, not just some of them.

@rsirian1 

Getting closer.  Here is the source of the pictures in the OP. https://www.instagram.com/silvercrowncoin/p/C0GRYlBuFLc/?img_index=1

and the NGC Cert:

Verify NGC Certification | NGC

The pictures on the NGC cert page are the pictures on the NGC coin page: https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/netherlands-gelderland-lion-daalder-km-15.2-1636-1647-cuid-1083946-duid-1433198

@King 

 If a forger made - say 50 - of the same coin, then the member has one, 

and NGC has one, and out there somewhere are 48 others. 

 They are all made with a pair of dies and all would be the same. Surely? 

The coin I posted pics of is the exact same coin that is currently slabbed by NGC. The pics I used were before it was graded. Everyone was telling the seller it was fake so he sent it to NGC. NGC says it’s authentic but cleaned. It’s currently for sale on eBay for $3,100. I‘m a bit on the fence about it being authentic, and I don’t know if it’s cleaned. As I said, a lot of people don’t think it’s cleaned. As for it being authentic, I’ve never seen a leeuwendaalder (lion daalder) with this sort of detail and I’ve seen them in MS63.

This is a tough thread, OP originally only asked if the coin has been cleaned and not the authenticity of the coin. It was then pointed out by members (me included) that the coin is fake. My initial opinion was based on images supplied by the OP and I thought fake, my opinion solidified later as such. It also transpired that many others (including the OP who is on the „fence“ regarding this) had previously not believed in the coins authenticity and this I can assume is from viewing the images taken before it was sent to NGC, where it was imaged again and authenticated as genuine. There is however a difference in the images from taken theoretically before going to NGC and the ones they took whilst grading it.
 

I guess through lighting, camera/lens quality, and or image formats, it is possible for one image to not 100% match up to the other image. At this moment all we have are the images, no one has the coin/slab in hand (and as it is now incapsulated) no one will be able to hold the coin without owning it and breaking it out of the capsule - something I doubt the seller would do, due to the fact that so many people / potential buyers question its authenticity.

I found the coin on eBay, and I found nothing untoward with the seller, he/she is not a one time seller of just this one coin. This leaves the question of the authenticity of the coin from NGC, and I am sure that they have many ways of authentication and can fully justify their assessment (likewise with the details/cleaning grade), so if I were to trust one, I should in theory trust the other. However, have NGC ever made a mistake? Has a fake coin ever made it through to achieve a grade & authentication? And have NGC ever given a Details grade to an uncleared coin, or missed the fact a coin has been cleaned? No system is perfect, and any system is open to manipulation but ultimately we have to value and respect such companies and their decisions.

Which brings us back to the coin / cons / and forgeries, my last assessment was that the coin authenticated at NGC had been used as a blueprint to produce replicas, but it seems that an eBay seller has the coin in the capsule with the authentication from NGC and that they actually sent the coin in to get it graded (this may or may not be true) only the seller  knows 100% and the question then arises „why risk lying“ (the answer of course is money) but I cannot question the integrity of this seller, all I can do is decide if I as a person would buy this coin… I have given up deciding if the coin imaged out of the capsule is the coin that NGC graded as AU Details Cleaned or a copy made from the images on the NGC website, I do not have the capsule or coin to view and therefore cannot make a more informed decision. 
 

Would I buy the coin if I could view it at a dealership and the coin in the capsule looked 100% like the images on the NGC website and I agreed with NGCs assessment of AU Details Cleaned - YES.

Would I buy the coin from the images I have seen online, whilst making an assessment that the coin (based on the viewing of such images) has not been Cleaned  - NO.

Would I buy the coin because there is a questionable Cleaned grade, in the hope that a different grading company would decide it had not been cleaned and therefore achieve a better authentication certificate, and thus increase its possible value - ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Has the coin been cleaned? From the NGC images on their website - possibly YES. 

From the images not taken by NGC of the coin not incapsulated (I cannot decide if it is the same coin) - probably NOT.

And the final question to ask is;

Is there a possibility that PCGS would find this coin to be a forgery and or give it a cleaned grade?

King

This is a tough thread, 

Have to agree with that but also entertaining.

I too found the ebay listing and the seller is straight up selling it as “AU cleaned” so all is above board. By the way the seller is a Numista member.

rsirian1

King

This is a tough thread, 

Have to agree with that but also entertaining.

 

I too found the ebay listing and the seller is straight up selling it as “AU cleaned” so all is above board. By the way the seller is a Numista member.

I thought you were the owner 😉

Someone in another forum pointed out some details on this coin compared to another 1641 leeuwendaalders.