Counterfeit French Ecu 1643 A

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I bought this coin thinking it was authentic, but am now positive it is counterfeit.  

 

It weighs 25.5 grams, two grams less than the expected 27.5g.  I did a crude density test and it came in at ~8.5g/cm3 versus the expected 10.36.  

 

I took it to a local coin dealer and they tested it on their machine.  It is 62% copper and 36% zinc.  I didn't see what the remaining 2% was comprised of.

 

I also note the sides look hammered and/or scraped, possibly to hide cast marks.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?  I wouldn't mind so much if it is a contemporary counterfeit, but would be disappointed if it is more current.  

 

Thanks, Rich

 

I guess this isn’t a coin people are familiar with.   

 

Just a general question - Considering this is a copper/zinc alloy, I would think it’s more likely to be a contemporary counterfeit, as the counterfeiter‘s primary objective was to profit on the precious metal.  
 

If this was a modern counterfeit, the counterfeiter would be more likely to use silver to have it pass as an authentic coin.   Does that make sense?  

Its not a contemporary circulating counterfeit it FABRIC has Modern CHinese forgery all over it.

John P Lorenzo

What do you mean by “it FABRIC has Modern CHinese forgery all over it?”  What do you see that proves it's Chinese? Just curious.

Just from experience. Its pale look. Motifs. Appearance of the metal. See my profile.

John P Lorenzo

Your profile doesn't answer my question at all.  Please respond here. Thanks.

Modern Chinese coin forgeries—especially those targeting collectors of historical silver and gold—are often distinguishable by their alloy composition, edge condition, and die characteristics. A hallmark of these fakes is the use of non-traditional alloys, most notably iron-nickel (Fe/Ni) blends and German silver (a copper-nickel-zinc alloy). These materials mimic the appearance of precious metals but differ significantly in weight, magnetism, and acoustic properties. Fe/Ni coins are magnetic and often lighter than genuine silver issues, while German silver has a slightly yellowish or bluish sheen and produces a duller ring when dropped. I actually purchased a few dozen and did high end XRF testing for my chapter on Modern CHinese forgeries for my book.

The edges of modern Chinese forgeries frequently appear “new” or freshly machined, which is inconsistent with the wear expected on coins purported to be centuries old. Reeding may be overly sharp, uniform, or show signs of lathe tooling. In some cases, cast fakes reveal seam lines or tiny pits along the edge—clear indicators of non-struck production. Even when struck, counterfeit dies may lack proper collar alignment, resulting in uneven edge flow or distorted legends near the rim.

Die characteristics also offer diagnostic clues. Many Chinese forgeries use CNC-milled or laser-engraved dies, producing unnaturally crisp details that lack the organic flow of hand-engraved originals. Lettering may be too modern, misaligned, or use incorrect fonts. Portraits and heraldic elements often appear “flat” or overly stylized. Surface treatments such as artificial toning or chemical aging are applied to simulate patina, but these often appear iridescent, patchy, or inconsistent with natural oxidation patterns. This has - the CHINESE LOOK. 

John P Lorenzo

non-traditional alloys, - how do you know from then pictures what alloy was used?

edges of modern Chinese forgeries frequently appear “new” or freshly machined - the pictures of the edge don't look new or freshly machined at all

CNC-milled or laser-engraved dies - what specifically from the pictures indicates this was made from those types of dies.

 

You may be correct but you haven convinced me with your arguments.  I think you're just guessing.

There is no way to be sure as most people do not take proper pictures. Provide the necessary metrology.  https://www.facebook.com/groups/845348399902181

However I am 99% certain as I collect this country and time period and have one of the finest collection of French CCC ECU's in the world. 

John P Lorenzo

@colonialjohn - Thanks for your input, however I must admit I am also confused buy your conclusion.   

 

You provide three characteristics of Chinese counterfeits, however my example does not satisfy any of these characteristics.  Mine is not an Fe alloy, nor does it have the coloration of German silver, rather it's a Cu/Zn alloy which was commonly used in 1600s.  Mine also does not have crisp edges or reeding, rather is hammered, possibly to hide cast marks, but casting was also a 1600s method of counterfeiting.  Finally, mine does not have crisp details or lettering, rather it's slightly less crisp than the genuine version.  

 

On another forum, it was suggested these characteristics made it a contemporary counterfeit.

 

As the owner I am hopeful that it is contemporary, however if it is a modern fake, I can accept that, but would want to understand the rationale behind it.  The rationale you provide seems to suggest the opposite.

Could be CCC but its on the borderline. Brass composition is a good thing. Take and edge shot. The edge examination is JUST AS IMPORTANT as the obverse/reverse photos. Supply an edge shot and I will be tagged by Numista to re-evaluate. Looks OK as a CCC but need to see the edge.

John P Lorenzo

This is the edge shot I provided in the OP.  Are you asking for different edge shots?

Yes a CCC French Ecu - congratulations. JPL.

John P Lorenzo

colonialjohn

Yes a CCC French Ecu - congratulations. JPL.

Good to hear - thanks

Bonjour,

Une reproduction assez ressemblante est répertoriée sur Numista: N#468739

On dirait une copie moderne à la Chinoise mais à la tranche retravaillée maison. Difficile d’en dire plus dans l’avoir en main. 

X @NumisMedal

Polette

Bonjour,

Une reproduction assez ressemblante est répertoriée sur Numista: N#468739

On dirait une copie moderne à la Chinoise mais à la tranche retravaillée maison. Difficile d’en dire plus dans l’avoir en main. 

Yes, it looks very similar to this - thanks for posting.

This Numista catalog is incorrect. Its not silver plated such as Sheffield plating via Birmingham as an example but mercuric silvering over a probably brass host as is common in French plate in antiquities using a brass host. See the similarities of the silvering on this example. There identical in appearance. Couple this with a VERY WORN edge and its a historical CCC of the period. Its cartoonish features do make it Modern looking. https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1169742931121459&set=gm.1097195378050814&idorvanity=845348399902181

Interestingly when ECU CCC are silvered they are normally over a brass/bronze host rather than copper as in England CCCs of the same period. Again it goes back to French Plate being brass and the technology in and around France at this time in the 19thC. JPL.

John P Lorenzo

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