Changes

After thinking out how I was going to approach recommending the 3 most important changes I would like to see in Numista to save everyone's time in searching for coins to trade for, I came to a startling revelation. No matter what I or anyone suggests, it will not be implemented because Numista is not a viable commercial product. No more major efforts will be invested in it until or if Krause decides to buy it. One way or another we all will be paying to use this site.

After unloading all that, here are my 3 suggestions to save preparation time in developing a trade:

1. Put up a flag next to a person's user name if they have not logged in for 45 days; or whatever period of time that is appropriate. I tried to find a particular coin which only one person had. Unfortunately, there appears to have been no activity in that account since becoming a member in 2010. This is all too typical.

2. It is time for the users to put grades on their coins to be exchanged. This can be done with the comments box which I and probably less than 10% of members currently do, but it needs a field of its own. I am totally in the dark when looking for vf 19th century coins from France and the UK because of the plethora of low grade specimens. People can learn to grade. Give them a chance. They will at least approximate the true grade.

3. Give users the option to edit out the checkmarks. For me this would mean reducing a persons exchange list from possibly 1000+ coins to a more manageable list of 20-30 coins. I do not need to see the coins I already have.

The 3 changes above will make Numista an even better database than it is currently.

I totally agree with number one. I know it from other forums that next to a person's name or avatar there is a yellow dot when a member has not been active for more than 60 days or so, and a red dot could be applied to members that have less than 85% of stars gained through swaps. Nr 2 will I'm sure stay to everyone's choice - I do it as well but you can't force anyone to do it. Nr 3 I don't see the point from it as some also want coins that they already own (I collect Belgian pre-1900 coins by high grade, no matter how often I have it - if they are at least AU I am interested).

+ for nr 3 I believe there is already an option to mark coins as being not interested in the coin and then look at only the coins you don't have.

Quote: erniemixNumista is not a viable commercial product. No more major efforts will be invested in it until or if Krause decides to buy it. One way or another we all will be paying to use this site.

I actually think you're wrong about Numista not being commercially viable. Currently advertising revenues on the net are poor but this could change in the future.

1 Printed magazines will likely end up down the toilet and advertisers that used them will have to go elsewhere to advertise

2 Owners of sites have to become more choosey about who they actually sell advertising to in order to clean up the image of net advertising

3 If profits are wanted then they just have to get more creative.

Anyway maybe profit isn't the primary motive for Numista - maybe it's done for enjoyment and the common good of collectors?

It's a guess but I think the current advertising probably just cuts the cost for the servers needed to run Numista.

QuoteNumista is not a viable commercial product. No more major efforts will be invested in it until or if Krause decides to buy it. One way or another we all will be paying to use this site.

I read your comment - and given that I misunderstand what you really mean - I can only give you this answer (at least until Xavier himself gives answer, or any other of the team):

* Numista has been free for quite some time now - and most probably will stay this way
* it has constantly made progress and major changes and new feature have been implemented ever since
* Numista is ran by private efforts, means all time invested into programming new features, admin
and moderation workload, verifying the catalogue etc. is done by users spending their private free time.
* lots of additional workload is done by collaborative work of users participating to the catalogue by
uploading images, data etc, hinting errors to be corrected, providing data and information etc. - all for
free!
* Numista's base of operations was and will be voluntary work and collaborative work by users
* that said I think people around are good adviced to be a little patient concerning changes and new
features. Especially if one takes into account that everyone working on Numista has a private life
with job, family, studies, other hobbies etc.
* I also think that Numista is (in its current state) the most versatile coin collector's and swapping site
available on the internet. already! and can only get better in time
* I don't think Krause will buy - and I even do not think Numista will be sold. Since all the workload
of team members and users is based on the vision of "free-to-use, free-for-all" concept. we do not
get paid for this and all the idealistic and voluntary work of all these users would otherwise be spoiled.
* there is no need to sell just to implement new features - see point above: patience!

Where are you Xavier. I am personally tired of giving you suggestions that would improve the site. I couldn't even shame you out of hiding by claiming your site is economically unviable. Shame on you

...he's on vacation?

Maybe he should've left an announcement, if you're concerned about him not responding.

The Webmaster is on vacation. Don't like the site? Mmm...then you can leave I suppose. Shame on you in thinking that your words could suddenly change someone else, their point of view, or even how they work. I challenge you to create a better site than this. And after a year and it hasn't been done; I'll complain to you and see if that will shake you up.

Quote: bam777The Webmaster is on vacation. Don't like the site? Mmm...then you can leave I suppose. Shame on you in thinking that your words could suddenly change someone else, their point of view, or even how they work. I challenge you to create a better site than this. And after a year and it hasn't been done; I'll complain to you and see if that will shake you up.

Nicely put

I have looked at many sites similar to Numista on the web and none come close to it for quality usability and the friendly/liberal manner in which it is ran.

The fact that we get this for free is something we should be grateful for and we must keep in mind that our suggestions for improvements are only that - suggestions.

It's not just the time and effort to implement any changes needed, you have to remember that the Numista team are constantly answering emails concerning questions about the site and settling diputes and on top of that every new coin, picture or adjustment added has to be checked for accuracy. This adds up to a lot of man hours.

It would be prudent to have more than one person be able to do any particular task.  Cross-training is smart.

Quote: CeruleanIt would be prudent to have more than one person be able to do any particular task.  Cross-training is smart.

That summarizes all my opinions.
This might be a great site, but that is no excuse to not make it better.
Specially it is no excuse to accept ignorance from the owner, Ben.

I have checked out this "erniemix guy" (did not see his/her profile before)

Maybe someone with an experience of collecting close to 40.000 coins and a track record of 160 swaps with a clear 100% rating deserves a bit more respect on Numista.

Or I just might be old fashioned?

I know, he has more than anyone else on this site.

Quote: manxcat12I know, he has more than anyone else one this site.

So? My referee friend?
What is the right answer to an [exteremely valid] disappointment statement from the most experienced collector?
Send him/her away, he/she can build another site, ... blabla, .... lovely... ... instead of building on his/her experience... phhh... ???

Numista team: Allign Yourself!
.. or really shame on you!

Quote: bam777The Webmaster is on vacation. Don't like the site? Mmm...then you can leave I suppose. Shame on you in thinking that your words could suddenly change someone else, their point of view, or even how they work. I challenge you to create a better site than this. And after a year and it hasn't been done; I'll complain to you and see if that will shake you up.

I hope you will moderate your own post, Ben.
It IS a shame!!!

Chill bud, after all we're just volunteers making improvements to the site everyday.

Quote: SmartOneKgChill bud, after all we're just volunteers making improvements to the site everyday.

Personally I expect more from these so-called volunteers.

How can these people create something free for all to use and not work tirelessly day and night until it is absolutely Perfect.

And more to the point what sort of person takes a holiday when absolute pefection is not yet achieved. Anyone would have thought he has some sort of life thingy outside Numista.

It is overwhelmingly amazing, how certain people do not understand or do not WANT to understand, or maybe are not capable to understand the difference between volunteer work and OWNING a site. For simplification, here you go:
1) Owner of the site gets a lot of money, from links at the bottom of the page,
2) Teammembers work a lot, because they enjoy it and learn from it (or else),
3) We, peasants, enjoy contributions and work free, as well.

I am not critisizing team 2 or 3 at all!!! (Appreciations, guys!), respect to teammembers and the peasants' team, really!- you guys all do your jobs great! (that is where I am, happily!)

HOWEVER, the owner, the principle of this site is an irresponsible, incompetent leader. I cannot do more to highlight that, HE has to improve, develop or change, or sell the site - else it falls
- NOW, you can fire me, I had enough of ignorance, or "chill me out, Kenny" - it will not work.

This is NOT a heated opinion. This is my judgement as a well-established consultant.
Of course, you can kill me with a couple of words,  like you've killed erniemix.

You can also discourage me from using this site, but it will change nothing.... it is still rotten till MANAGEMENT is shapen up.

imreh - I seriously think you overestimate any profits the site makes, if indeed it makes any profit at all. Web advertisements tend to pay very little and I can say with all certainty that in the year or so I have used this site I have never clicked on a single ad so absolutely no money has been made from my membership.

I find it interesting how sites like Numista are viewed by many in the same way some view their village pub. They use it on an almost daily basis they contribute to its atmosphere and its survival. They come to see it as a home from home and have a warm sense of ownership. This unfortunately means that when it is not run in the way they feel is right then things can get emotional and people feel hard done by.

The patrons of the village pub are the patrons and not the owner nor landlord. It is not for them to instruct on how the pub should be ran. It is helpful for them to comment on things they do not like or would like to see changed to improve the pub, but they must remember that their steak in the pub is much smaller than their emotions may lead them to believe. The owner of the pub will run it in whatever way they feel fit, taking into consideration the time and resources they are willing to spend. It is wise for them to listen to the patrons but it is impossible to please everyone.

There are many pubs out there - I know I drank in them all, and after careful consideration I decided Numista would be my local.  

It is in principle NOT a question of how much, but rather a question of yes or no (digital)
the answer is YES. It does generate INCOME. The "how much" depends on the business capability of the owner. (Knowing him yes , I overestimate)

The thing is, we could all contribute to this LESS income (to become MORE), provided there would come some appreciation and respect from Mr.Webmaster. He prefers to appear for a minute, then disappear for 5 months for "vacation" - this I find unaccaptable if you run a site with 23000 members: then you need to open them up for others to master... ... SEE CERULEAN'S wonderful note!b (BELOW)

From this point on, what is the question Walder Coins?

Even Marc Zuckerberg is more visible on his website (called FACEBOOK) then our glorious webmaster! - it is a shame !!!


I have to say that this is a SUPPORTING NOTE - I love Numista!

Quote: CeruleanIt would be prudent to have more than one person be able to do any particular task.  Cross-training is smart.

As always, and quite rightly, you are looking at it from a business point of view...as you have identified Xavier isn't a business man. He is a coin collector that created a site that has grown.
It is got so big that the little tin pot team wasn't enough to keep it from getting stale: but they did a damn good job.
I haven't been with the site long and have seen it ripped apart by many. We have older and wiser collectors and we have the young and not so smart. We have the scammers and the thieves. Just like society...if you will.
I was fed up with the way Numista was being run. I joined the team to improve the site. I dealt with coinsoldier; when the site crashed after a while; I had got so addicted to the site I was at a loss. I had black thoughts about Numista...and the future of the site...I sought answers from Xavier and I started to tell him honestly how I felt about the site. I wanted to work with Xavier and ask him to improve the site suggesting some ideas to work smarter. I have been given the key to administration and perform some roles that only Xavier used to do. I congratulated him on the success of new tools which was a fair amount of work for him as well as being a student. I have nagged Xavier time and time again and it is always amicable.
I hear you imreh, and I know the way the site is run gets on your nerves. Once again I ask for your patience. I am not changing my post and can only say that I hadn't seen that the original poster was such a senior member with a large collection: however I still say that a site like this takes time to mature: just as a child takes time to grow up. I know we will lose members if we don't come up with the goods and we need to keep going and improving. It takes time. I must admit I have been slow to respond to e-mails lately and sorting some issues out. All I can say is sorry. Torontokuba is still waiting for me to complete a swap that is probably a month old now!
Anyway, I digress. Improvements will come. Xavier will improve. Faith in leadership...I can understand those that don't have. Trust...takes time to build.

Dear Ben,

All well written and I 99% agree and appreciate all you have stated (this more for the other readers, as I trust that you, personally know, that I appreciate your work).
I also congratulated Xavier for the recent changes and involvement of referees for countries, even though I was hoping to get at least Hungary as a referee; it was given to someone else, but I am very happy about the change!
I think it is a great step forward, and will positively contribute to the performance of the site. (sorry for the business terms, again ) - I have highlighted various times the more people are involved, the more a feeling of ownership and more responsibility for the site develops.
At the same time, it will eventually create an even greater problem: The lack of leadership with more people involved will - naturally, like the law of nature - result in more visible confusion, and misalignment.
When I am stating that Xavier is incompetent, I mean he is incompetent as a leader. That does not mean that he will not improve over time, but currently he is incompetent as a leader, and the site requires leadership and direction NOW.
What I am even more concerned about is that over the year I am watching Numista grow, I was unable to detect signs of ambition from him to grow his leadership skills. And if his ambition is not towards becoming a great leader of the site, then - logically - no other option is remaining: He needs to delegate this role to someone else, otherwise the collapse is unavoidable.
Trust me, I have seen hundreds of family businesses going bankrupt, because the stubborn founder insisted that himself should be the number one person in the company. Technical competencies and having innovative ideas (which Xavier has and I don't question them for a second!) is very different set of competencies than leading a team. - I know that this again is an "organizational development consultant's" view, but I am 100% sure that is extremely valid for Numista!

If you look at the "who we are?" page now: it is a long list experts and roles, but what stands out is that there is no role of a "TEAMLEADER" (or CEO, if you will   ) - The shares of a company without a CEO will very quickly drop on the stockmarket. I'd love to see your name there...

My respect to you imreh. Again, you have made your point clear. I don't mind the business terminology and agree that the point that you are making is a valid one.
I'd love it if I owned Numista. I do have a vision for Numista but that is not going to happen. That is because I don't own the site!
I have worked with Xavier closely and will continue to put in my view and put across suggestions that come from members too. As I have done frequently.

We need members like you imreh...you are not afraid to kick the hornets nest. Your business mind is right at many points and I have spoken to Xavier frequently about showing face and leading the team. As this is my hobby and not my business, I don't always have time to do as much to the site as I wish. My holidays are coming up and I'll have a mammoth purge of scammers, write a forum post on my role, and how I can help others on Numista.

Going back to erniemix: I see the suggestion, as is. A suggestion. I also think, that as some suggestions are very selfish in motive. There is nothing wrong with that...but we can't take up all the suggestions. Who knows whether Xavier will like an idea or not. It is a convincing argument not a whinge that will allow something or someone to change.

Quote: bam777We need members like you imreh...you are not afraid to kick the hornets nest.

Someone has to!
I receive too many supportive PMs from people, who might be too shy to express their opinions openly. That is what made me come back to the forum after I have decided to leave at some point.

Regarding suggestions:
Rejecting a suggestion is not a problem.
Ignoring and not answering to a suggestion is a MAJOR problem!

True. A slow response is unacceptable. I understand that. Things need to be worked on...it'll improve. I'm sure.

I have followed this thread from it's inception, half-heartedly to start and then with more interest over the last half dozen or so posts, so I thought I would throw in my two penn'orth. Firstly I wanted to say that I have a huge respect to you both, Ben and Imre, one of whom I have met and one I haven't, and I think you both have hugely positive contributions to make to this site. Something else that I feel has come across on this thread over the last couple of days is that healthy, constructive debate is so massively important to a participatory website & catalogue such as Numista.

Having got the back-slapping and manly admiration out of the way, I should probably comment on the original post. I can, to a certain extent, understand a certain amount of frustration and possibly irritation if the system for carrying out exchanges on this site is not to your liking. I also believe that the administrators (and possibly the owner) welcome other members' opinion and feedback on highlighting possible flaws on this site and offering potential solutions. What I don't quite understand is getting all bent out of shape when you don't get your own way and your suggestions are not implemented.

I, for one, am delighted that I found this site just over two years ago, I have thoroughly enjoyed cataloguing and building my collection in conjunction with participating on the forum and I enjoy the relationships that I have built up with other members both through communication and exchanges. To be perfectly honest, I am quite happy with the system that is in place for creating exchanges, even though I may not be what you would call a prolific swapper. The way I see it is the structure and framework is there for you to make a swap the way you want it. If you find a coin that you are looking for in a member's list but then find that the member has been inactive or is not swapping for now then it's a case of "Oh well, move on." I am one that does put the grade of my duplicates in the personal comment field which I think works quite well but at the end of the day that grade is only my opinion. For a swap to truly work there has to be communication and collaboration and if there is any doubt of the grades of the coins being offered, then you can always send scans or pictures to your swap partner.

By way of a summary, I hope that all members continue to participate and communicate, in spite of or even because of your differing opinions, and please continue to offer suggestions of ways to improve the site but if those ideas are ignored or not implemented immediately please don't throw your toys out of the pram! Thanks for reading and happy collecting  

Dear Radrick,

It is not the first time I read your post with enthusiasm. Indeed, secretly, I was hoping that you and some other significant professionals (pnightingale, lidian, etc,...) joins in this discussion, as I do value your opinions.
I think we have too much of "back-slapping" (as you call it, ... rightly).
Of course, Numista is a great site and we shall celebrate our successes: We have 40000+ coins online, however we do lack 360,000+ minimum, which are not online.
I can be proud with Hungary having 637 coin types registered, but at the same time it means that we have only 1700 coin types to go, for Hungary only!
We have a wonderful swapping system, but is that an ultimate, final, best solution to all? - I doubt.
We continuously need to look for further and better solutions and more involvement from people, otherwise we stuck as the paperbased catalogues [Krause] have stuck.
I want to have more from this site - indeed, I want to have more every day, like facebook -  I want to see this site as the leading edge site in coin collection. For that, we need LEADERSHIP (now, the rest of my speech you can read above )

So, last burning question remains: where is the leader?

Quite clearly imreh you feel that what Numista needs is strong autocratic leadership. Someone who will delegate to the volunteers set targets, have clear plan for the future, and make the ambitions of the site known so that everyone can rally to the good cause of Numista.

Frankly a project like Numista does not need that. Yes better organisation would benefit the site but Numista is all about co-operation; people chipping in for the common good and I think with your business mind you struggle to see the wood for the trees. Xavier has a laissez-faire style of leadership in the running of Numista and although it might have its pitfalls in terms of organisation it works well for Numista.

We are free to express ourselves on this site to a point, far more than other more commercial sites which fear losing revenue from advertisers such as ebay.  We can slag ebay off to our heart's content as long as we are being truthful. On other sites the admin slap down such sedition in fear of losing revenue.  

We are rewarded for adding coin pictures to the site by being allowed to put links in under them to our site. This was in the beginning the only reason I bothered to ad pic's. Other sites don't want links to go to sites which may be selling coins as this would upset paying advertisers, so I have never contributed images to them.

Also because the site is run by volunteers you need a relaxed style of leadership; volunteers must be free to contribute as and when they can, and when they feel they want to otherwise they will feel unappreciated and leave the site altogether.

Their are many more points I would like to make but I'm a bit low on time so I will answer your last question "So, last burning question remains: where is the leader?"

Answer: Holiday - If I'm on holiday I don't answer my emails or update my website - I relax enjoy myself and then return home refreshed to start the daily grind again. But don't worry, its OK - Numista is in the capable hands of the volunteers who will keep things ticking over until he gets back. They know what to do and will just do it because they don't need an Autocrat to tell them what to do each day.

Also you never know he might come home from his holiday feeling renewed and ready to impliment some changes to Numista. Or he might come home, read some of the comments on this thread, and think to himself why did I ever bother with this site in the first place. (I know I would)

I think Numista is the best-of-breed for online collecting sites. As collecting software Numista is pretty marginal. The value comes from the coin data/pictures and the collector community. The swap system is pretty good, as well, which makes the site very useful  as well.

I've considered buying an offline application to manage my collection because it would do things like help me print labels, etc... but then I don't have access to the swap feature without redoing a lot of my data entry work.

I'm a programmer by trade, so when confronted with dissatisfaction in software my natural inclination is to write my own... well, trying to build a Numista type system is not easy. In addition to there being some rather interesting challenges in *how* to organize the data, there is the tedious problem of entering the data somehow. Starting a Numista-like site from scratch seems like a waste of time if there is a way to contribute code to Numista. Is there a way to do that? When I look at the team page it mostly looks like catalog editors and moderators and the like.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080201233441/http://www.numista.com/?lang=en

...be grateful for what you've got.

I'm here for quite a while, and I gave up suggesting improvements and just do swaps, I've made an Excel with my coins that I think it's better than Numista catalogue.

One example:
18 Jul 21:25  1 Real – Brazil KM#636 Rejected
Aixois — Hello! This coin was demonetized December 23, 2003 due to the high number of false registration. http://www.bcb.gov.br/pt-br/paginas/bc-explica-retirada-de-circulacao-das-moedas-de-r-1-de-aco-inoxidavel.aspx  

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3198.html
The coin is shown as non-circulating.
The team doesn't even know what non-circulating is, and that make me sad.
Demonetized != Non-circulating

Quote: Walder CoinsQuite clearly imreh you feel that what Numista needs is strong autocratic leadership.

Totally on the contrary! - How could I be misunderstood more?

Xavier currently is an autocratic leader. - that causes the problems!
In the rare cases when he deals with Numista, he makes decisions alone, does not delegete, does not listen to other's opinions, and surely does not motivate people to perform. Pretty much like Louis XIV. - This attitude discouraged people to be here, and will discourage in the future, as well.

Numista - because it is run by volunteers - requires a leader, who creates a motivating environment, where the volunteers contribute, because it is their [the volunteer's] intrinsic motivation. Someone, who empowers, motivates others; instead of him setting targets, the leader shall build on the wishes and targets of the volunteers and steer them into the right direction, while boosting their motivation. - no signs of this leadership attitude, unfortunately

Quote: kommodorehttps://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3198.html
The coin is shown as non-circulating.
The team doesn't even know what non-circulating is, and that make me sad.
Demonetized != Non-circulating

It is not marked non-circulating anymore, I made the change based on members' remarks.

Demonetized does not equal non-circulating. Non-circulating means it was not meant to be put into circulation although it is legal tender and can be still used (otherwise known as a fantasy or token). A demonetized coin is a coin that is not legal tender although it used to circulate as currency.

Painfully diverted.....

Mmmm...quite odd.

Quote: manxcat12http://web.archive.org/web/20080201233441/http://www.numista.com/?lang=en

...be grateful for what you've got.

Pretty cool!