Maybe our Swedish members can give us a first-hand report on what's going on.
Without getting too political, I think that anybody who values personal liberty should fight fiercely against any attempt to abolish physical currency entirely. Credit cards, PayPal, cell phone payment apps, etc., are all very convenient, but it will be a terrible milestone the day that it becomes impossible to make a transaction anonymously and without fear of identity theft or data collection by corporations and governments. I understand that cash facilitates a lot of crimes, but this is like saying "Many crimes are conducted using the mail, so from now on nothing at all may be mailed without showing identification and having your mail inspected."
This is a very nice article and it was poignant for me since my friends and I were discussing it just a couple weeks ago. Although I am a coin collector, I pretty much do 95% of my banking and transactions electronically - mostly through credit card or electronic transfers (mobile banking). The only time I handle cash is paying for coffee in my office canteen because they won't take credit card under $2. Else I'd have swiped that too on the card
My major fear is data theft when a bank/company's system is hacked and there is no way to protect myself. A colleague of mine had his identity stolen mid last year and it was on multiple accounts and credit cards. It was nearly impossible for him to act proactively despite filing a a police complaint; in most cases he would get a call that money was due and that's when he would take action. Sweden would have to create a one-stop-shop system in which you report your identity has been stolen and all your accounts are shut down immediately
A secondary concern would be for me as a tourist in Sweden; if i use my credit card, I get charged ~3% transaction fee which isn't fair. Though if I can get a visa travel card at the airport or in my home country without incurring extra charges than simply exchanging CAD for SKR, I'd be fine with that.
I guess anonymity is not really important for me. I can't think of many cases I'd be worried its recorded somewhere unless its something embarrassing that i'd rather keep quiet...I guess many people would be anxy about paying for porn, buying something normally meant for kids (e.g. children's cartoons) or other "Weird" stuff. As long as its nothing that can be used legally against me, i have no issue.
However, I tend to agree with the ABBA guy, the pros totally outweigh the cons. In terms of wiping out the black market, reducing street crime, corruption etc, this has enormous potential in most countries, not least developing ones like Nigeria and India where corruption can be endemic in govt and large parts of society. I have personal experience when I lived in Bombay how technology can completely change the service rendered and cut out the middle-men bureaucrats and opaqueness.
I think it is inevitable that all countries will move to a cashless economy in the next 20 years. I don't think it is right to abolish it as long as there are a significant number of people who want to use cash; perhaps Sweden is better positioned to follow a carrot-n-stick policy. Just make it increasingly obvious how much easier doing e-transactions are than cash.
BTW, in India, the postal authorities have every right legally to check all incoming and outgoing mail. Every letter passes through a scanner and they are legally permitted to impound mail or open it with or without an individuals permission. The problem for me was that whenever that happened, there was a good chance something got pilfered and I didn't really have much recourse.
Different cultures have a different tolerance or expectation of personal liberty. It's currently politically correct and trendy to pretend that people all over the world are little Americans trapped inside an Asian or African body. It just ain't so. Some people thrive under a dictatorship that others would find oppressive. North Korea isn't going to suddenly adopt Jeffersonian Democracy if we just give them enough hugs. It's a flawed way of thinking promoted by a bunch of 1960's leftovers and burned out hipsters who have taken over much of America's higher learning, media and politics.
From FDRs determination to intervene in Europe's war and eclipse Great Britain, to Clinton's meddling in the former Yugoslavia, to GWB's nation building and the Clinton / Rice State Department turning the Muslim world into their personal sandpit, it's been a 70 year disaster both for America and it's victims. When did the USA or the EU suddenly get to decide what kind of government a sovereign nation can choose? Let Cuba be Cuba, Iran be Iran and concentrate on improving the lives of your own people instead of interfering in the affairs of other countries!
It's now somewhat ironic to look back at the motto on one of America's first coins - "MIND YOUR (OWN) BUSINESS".
Multiculturalism or Diversity is one of history's greatest frauds. Unique cultures should be preserved and celebrated, not thrown together into some fictional melting pot to produce a single monocultural glob of humanity which can be more easily controlled by the vile globalists. If you don't like how things are done in Africa of China then don't go there.
The rest of the world see America's obsession with the 2nd Amendment as a quaint anachronism, (it's OK, many American's think it's about shooting deer) or our idea of codifying free speech to be just posturing in a world where your every word and move can be monitored. Conversely I find it strange to see historians being jailed for arriving at conclusions which may differ from those favored by the regime or the outright banning of controversial political parties.
I don't trust governments, large or small, near or far. I consider the Federal Government to be a far bigger threat to my well being than any bunch of Islamic bogeymen hiding in a cave in Pakistan. Yes, they have committed some terrible atrocities but it wasn't Muslims who burned to death dozens of children in Waco Texas or shot Randy Weaver's wife in the head as she held her newborn baby. It was the Clinton administration.
There isn't much that an individual can do against the might of the globalists and over powerful governments. If you think your government is your friend then continue to accept the erosion of your liberty and privacy. For my part I will not go quietly into the night. "Our" governments pulled off a massive scam when they replaced our gold and silver backed currencies with worthless base metals. Now they are taking away even the pretense that we can hold our own money by shifting to an entirely digital mode. You have a worth of X amount of $ because somewhere, on a server you can't access, a little piece of code says you do...... what could possibly go wrong?
In the light of Lois Lerner using the IRS to penalise anyone critical of the Obama regime can anyone have any real doubt that if you incur the displeasure of our rulers that you will suddenly find yourself with a hefty overdraft? Do you really think that the government won't be watching who you make campaign contributions to or what you spend your money on? There have already been calls made by politicians to use exactly this kind of data to predict who might commit a crime in the future and to incarcerate them based on nothing more than their banking activity and spending habits.
No, my friends I will continue to use physical cash wherever possible and when the day dawns that it's no longer available then I will gladly embrace a barter based local economy.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Well now, Phil took it more political than I intended but I suppose it is ultimately a political issue. It's funny in a way, because I think Phil and I are on rather disparate ends of the political spectrum (I'll just say that Bernie Sanders is probably not far enough to the left for my tastes) but on this issue we are in solid agreement.
Whenever things like anonymity come up, people say things like "if you don't have anything to hide, what's the problem"? But it's not whether you *currently* have something to hide. I think it's important that our laws and social structures preserve individual liberty and self-determination as much as possible. Who in Germany in 1930 thought that in just a few years they would be sending people to extermination camps? Suddenly, if you are helping smuggle Jews out of the country, the ability to travel without trace and pay for a train ticket without your transaction being monitored becomes critical to saving lives (your own included).
Is it impossible that anything like that could ever happen again? Maybe, though I never like to bet against history, and I wouldn't want to give away the systems that might allow us to get through another dark night like that.
US money went off silver long before I was born, but even with our fragile and illusory fiat money I can at least buy a coffee at the grocery store on my lunch break without corporate HQ needing to know that what kind of coffee I get and what other food I buy, when I tend to shop, etc. It doesn't matter whether I have anything to hide. They simply don't need to be up in my business like that.
It might shock you Jessie to discover that the US politician I admire the most is Huey P Long. I image the political landscape to be a circle rather than a simple flat line. I believe there are (or at least there used to be) certain issues which transcend politics. Individual liberty is one of them.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
It is always good policy to be anonymous as you never know what can happen to any system that records your identity and activities. Look at the no-fly list, tons of innocent people are on it because they have similar names to actual suspicious people. The "I-have-nothing-to-hide" attitude can change very quickly. When I moved to a large city years ago, I kept getting calls from the local police at all hours of the day and night because the person they were looking for was the previous owner of my telephone number. It took months for them to be convinced I knew nothing of that person. A smaller nuisance was a woman who called me and said her husband drove interstate buses and had the phone number in his pocket and she wanted to know why. I had a savings account with an online-only bank. I noticed that several thousand dollars was missing. Turns out the bank had customer numbers with the same number of digits as account numbers. Another customer had the same customer number as my account number. He was paying off a loan at another institution and gave his customer number as the account number and the withdrawals were being made from my account. My bank had very strict rules for identification of customers accessing accounts, but since the requests for withdrawals were coming from another bank, they said it was that bank's responsibility to verify the accuracy and they always just paid requests coming from other banks. After several months and affidavits on my part, they did refund my money. Within a month the same thing happened. This time the bank customer service said I should change my account number, why couldn't they have suggested that earlier? I refuse to use debit cards. Local TV just recently mentioned you should use only credit cards because debit cards are not protected by law if someone else uses yours, unlike credit cards. And since the debit card is tied to your bank account it is easier for thieves to empty your account. The more information, however innocent it can seem at the time, that is recorded about you, the more probability it will be used against you at some time. I use cash as much as possible, stay anonymous as much as possible, do not vote, do not drive, do not own a home, do not own a cellphone, do not participate in social media. I probably would have made a good hermit in older times, when such were regarded as holy and fed by the local populace.
Last year a major fiber optic cable was cut. There was no backup cable. In our town and about 100 miles around you couldn’t use a credit card. Banks we’re closed and no ATM worked. If you didn’t have cash you could not eat at a restaurant, buy gas, stay at a hotel. You still need cash as a backup.
Quote: "ken6528"Last year a major fiber optic cable was cut. There was no backup cable. In our town and about 100 miles around you couldn’t use a credit card. Banks we’re closed and no ATM worked. If you didn’t have cash you could not eat at a restaurant, buy gas, stay at a hotel. You still need cash as a backup.
Every time we get a hurricane we have the same issue. The ATMs are emptied as soon as the wind picks up.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Exactly, the people who propose a cashless society always gloss over the fact that it is completely dependent on an always-on cell phone network and Internet connectivity. But nothing in life is 100% reliable, you have to have fallbacks.
I don't know if any of you have read James Howard Kunstler, but he calls this attitude "techno-utopianism", the idea that technology itself, by its very presence, can overcome all physical and social constraints.
Since ce we are already talking about politics I can mix it with religion as well ;)
Revelations 13 16-18
"It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."
This was written about 2000 years ago. Even just hundred years ago it was impossible to imagine this coming true, today anyone can imagine people having some kind of microchips in their hands. Just imagine how convinient it would be to have a chip.... That would be your ID, your wallet that you can't loose or forget, your medical record, your key for house and car, it can also maybe be your phone, Internet, gps.
I will add my piece. To Phil: I understand your posture, however, last time you (US) went ultra turtle, after ww1, we here in europe were starting bashing our heads in about 20 years. Until few hits came to your place too, then you became ninja turtle... saving us from ourselves. You were doing that ever since. If you go back on this, world will go down and it will bash you again.
I simplified history now to few words, but I can always say more if needed. Order you created, shields you in such way, that biggest thread to you is your goverment or crazy neighbour with rocket launcher or Apachee uprising (just examples, do not catch me on my words).
If we give up the cash, we are totally depended to our banks and central banks.
If they cut us from our digital money, we are totally lost.
I don't want to give banks and central banks so much power over me and the whole society.
The banks were responseble for the big crash which started with the fall of Lehman Bros (we feel it until now).
Do we trust these thiefs so much to give them total control of our money after they burned so much of it?
Now here in Europe the ECB taking "negative interest" from the commercial banks to get a higher inflation. The banks will take this from us customers sooner or later. With cash this is complicated, without cash they can do this easyly.
My money on a banking account is the banks money if they don't want to let me pay with a credit card or whatever they gave me to pay cashless.
Notes in my pocket are mine and noone can take it from me without force.
I always pay cash. I will keep paying with cash. I love cash. Cesh is freedom!!!
Only online shopping and my regular payments for energy, rent, insurance and so on are cashless.
And sometimes larger payments i pay with card, because i don't want to carry too much cash with me.
But i want to decide by myself if i pay with cash or not. A cashless society is not a free society (or will not stay free).
Gangsters don't need cash. The biggest ugly deals are payd with blood diamonds or bank money (remember the FIFA deals and the Panama-Papers...) and so on.
The End of the 500€ note is the beginning. Now the US-big-finance-Lobby (Lawrence Summers) is fighting against the 1000 CHF note. http://www.blick.ch/news/wirtschaft/geldpolitik-1000-franken-note-geraet-erneut-unter-beschuss-id5012459.html
Then they will fight against the 200€, 100€ 100$ and all the larger CHF notes. The total control of our money, earned by our own work with our own brains and hands, is the final objective. Don't let them win this game: Use cash!
Does ayone remember the Greek banks freezing cash withdrawals a year or two back? Basically you can hand over all your cash reserves to organisations which we already know to be crooked and in return you will "earn" 0.01% p.a. before taxes. When the time comes that you really desperately need it you won't be able to get it.
Or the bank might just declare themselves insolvent one day. "But Phil" you say "Surely banks are insured by the FDIC?" Correct, but not all banks and not all the time. Obama could suspend FDIC coverage this afternoon and the usual suspects would be cheering as he strikes a blow against the 1%. Best case scenario you might see a payout from the FDIC about 5 years down the road. Not likely but if it helps you sleep....
Since 2007 I've been gradually turning all paper assets into physical ones. Got a vintage pick up truck? I'll buy it. I sleep very well indeed.
There an old joke in Florida about a little old lady being pulled over by a State Trooper speeding down US19. When he asks if she has any weapons on her person she tells him, a 9mm in the glove box, two 12 gauges and an AR-15 in the trunk, a 911 in her shoulder holster, a .357 in the centre console and a saturday night special in her purse. The trooper blinks, scratches his head and says "Jesus lady, what are you so afraid of?" The old lady gives him a sly wink and replies "Not a f***ing thing Officer"
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Sweden is a cash hating country. No ones uses cash unless you are:
1) An immigrant
2) A tourist
3) 65+.
The first one I know. In the area I live in are about 95% non-Swedes, and I have never seen anyone carrying around so much cash as they do. They are thousands and thousands of crowns in their pockets without a second thought. A few days ago I was going to change a 200 kronor note to smaller notes in a shop in my area. The cashier in the shop I was in couldn't help since he did needed the change himself. Then another customer entered and asked me what I needed. I told him what I needed had he put out a bundle of bills, and with ease could change my 200 note. He must've had at least 2,000 SEK (246 USD) in his pocket.
More than 90% of the banks doesn't handle cash anymore in Sweden. The few banks who still are willing to handle cash still have some restrictions. They only handle 500 kronor bills (61.5USD). Coins and all of the other 5 denominations of banknotes will be refused.
People are even paying stuff for less than 1 USD with the credit card. The smaller shops, coffee shops or shops in the university areas often has a minimum limit of 2.5 USD for paying with credit cards. If you buy for less than 2.5 USD they will add like 10% or X SEK on the total amount. This isn't legal, but everyone des it anyways because it costs too much for them to do bank transactions for so little money.
When we change the banknotes series last year almost no one understood why. They were more like "why do we have banknotes as all?". I believe that if the world ever will be cash free, Sweden will be the first country in the world to stop using cash.
Wow, I guess I'm the one on here who had anything nice to say about a cashless society lol. Very curious to know what the average age group of this topics posters is.
I'm using a simple logic that the older one is, the more likely (s)he would stick with cash. But maybe I'm wrong and I'm the small minority that actually prefers electronic transactions.
There were some good points raised on why cash is good/ electronic evil. But frankly speaking, those are quite easily solvable with appropriate independent authorities and checks & balances. And I'm pretty sure the swedish govt might be already coming up with solutions to a lot of these concerns before they do make a decision to extinguish the legal tender status of banknotes and coins. Of course, one can point out the nexus between govt-banks-business etc etc. But then nothing can change the mind of a conspiracy-nut :-)
Anyways, if anything, this topic has made me think more about how I go about sharing my data. I'll admit sometimes I don't think much when logging into social apps and they say they'll access my FB profile or something like that
I'm 40 years old.
People i see using bank cards or credit cards to pay their things are from all ages. Even i use my bank card sometimes, if i forgot to take enough money with me.
But i see also many young people paying with cash. And i am not an oldtimer, i think.
I do not hate electronic transactions. I like them very much. It is much easyer to pay via paypal than sending a letter with cash for example. And much more secure.
But i don't want to be forced to use cashless transactions.
I want to by my bread and my DVD or book with cash and i want to have some cash with me. And i don't want anybody to know what i am buying. "Oh, Handszumgrus has his period, because he is buying Tampons" or shit like that. "This guy is buying cigarettes, we have to demant more money for his health insurance"... There are many examples - some funny, some not so funny. "This guy bought "halal" food, perhaps he is a terrorist"... and so on...
We had two "not so nice" Dictatorships with very effective intelligence services here in Germany. I had the luck to miss both (because i was born in Western Germany long time after the 12 Nazi-years). But all this reminds me a little bit... I don't want to happen this again.
But if i look to Turkey, Hungary, Poland... and if i look into my own country what happens with this new party "Alternative für Deutschland", i see the importance of cash even more.
I don't want to tell the Gouvernement, which newspapers i read!!! And i am telling them by paying newspapers and books via card or smartphone.
If the banks are making shit (because of their never ending greed), i want to keep the little bit money i have and store it at home if i want to.
And this is the point why the banks and the Governements want us to give up cash. The fear of a bank rush if they decide to take negative interest from us. Inflation is a negative interest - there is no need for more.
A cashless society is more useful for them than for us small guys.
They are going a straight way in this direction.
Taking away the large notes (the largest Note in US is 100$, in Euro-Land is from 2018 on 200€ (i am sure they will give up the 200€ short after the 500€)). Only Switzerland is a strong rock so far. I hope they will stay strong.
Next thing they do, is to make cash usage expansive. More and more banks - even in cash-loving Germany - demand payment for taking coins or giving coin rolls.
Some banks take one cent for every coin you are paying in. One Cent coins could thrown away instead of get payd in - there is no difference.
Some Lobby-Guys are fighting against the 100$ Note in USA. And the same guys are fighting (fighted) the large European Notes like 500€, 1000 CHF, 500 CHF.
And they are telling us, cash is used only by criminals and bad guys. This is rubbish!!!
A car is not a bad thing because gangsters driving in a car.
I fear most of us will know a cashless society within our lifetime. I fear all the concerns will be proven. As allways.
I constantly need cash here and there but of course online payments are the main tool these days
Whenever I see posts that eloquently articulate why we need cash (& why we shouldn't be forced by exclusion- to use debit/cc/digital) it pains me to realize how powerless people feel over the state of their financial affairs. I see seniors struggling to use self-check outs everyday since Canada has rapidly endorsed the BTC agenda. If you believe that this insidious billion dollar lobby group's propaganda (that it is helping reduce poverty) then shame on you!
At this moment, It's time to call them out. Canadians owe $1.85 for every $1.00 they earn. Students cannot repay their loans. Living on credit simply isn't possible yet we're encouraged to do so daily. We all know that its cool (a rush/thrill) to buy stuff without the pains of giving the physical cash to another person (business). Just b/c we live on credit, should we be pushing that mentality in the Philippines, India? Do we really need another casino down the road? (okay, a bit off-topic but you get the idea)
I never struggle with self-check outs: I just go to the store manager & tell them I need a teller to take my cash (or leave the merchandise & go somewhere that provides cash check outs). If we continue to “suck it up” (the progressive conversion to self-check outs) & never demand “person to person” service, than we can pretty much kiss that service (& cash) goodbye.
This is what's happened in Sweden. And they've made it more expensive to use cash! If we keep listening to people extol the virtues of cashless transactions (nod with approval) then we're our own worse enemies. We're the sweethearts of the BTCA campaign!
Cash & debit can continue to co-exist! But remember that there's no multi-million dollar lobby group (like the UN endorsed BTCA) that pushes “cash use” on consumers. That alone (never mind your loss of privacy) & the fact that anybody can so easily become a slave to a bank (by mortgage alone) should give one pause to extol the virtues of digital currency. Teach your kids financial literacy (& the dangers of using too much credit). Spread the word (which should be that there's a government endorsed lobby group spreading lies about “dirty” cash/etc) & insist that cash commerce be still available!
I just wrote about this phenomenon on banknote information. Son is a new generation,, mobile payment,, watch for payment,,
In a few weeks we are flying to Bulgaria from the Czech Republic (less than 2 hours). My son relies on the local "leva" to withdraw money from the first ATM he comes across, so he doesn't need anything with him.
The wife is a practitioner and gang leader- he takes with him,, banknotes-,,Euros, -, the grandchildren are small, but they received a large amount of euros from my father and great-grandfather from abroad, so they take them with them.
I can't go to a country without their valid currency, what if the ATMs don't open, the euro won't be accepted in the grocery store at the airport.
I had my son bring me a small amount of cash from the exchange office, which I will have with me.
Am I old school? And for many, many years I have owned international, REVOLUT, cards and virtual ones, etc.
Here is a sample of the banknotes imported from the bank in our district town 2 hours ago today:
Germany has always been fond of cash, I lived in Munich for years and later when the Euro had been introduced I spent a lot of time in Cologne. In many places, you could not use your plastic cards, cash only. The Germans were sorry, when the 500 Euro note, was stopped. In France, you can pay by cash or plastic, more or less all the time, but the shops can set their small limits as they want. I don't even know if the French still accept the 200 euro note?
As a user, I prefer to have both possibilities. My collection would not be fun without circulating coins🤔
I don't even know if the French still accept the 200 euro note?
I don't know either. I'm in Germany and haven't been to France in quite a while. But I can tell you that most (but not all) cashiers do not even flinch when a customer is paying with a €200 note here in Germany. Of course, your purchase shouldn't be in the single digests.
What I find very worrisome is a new development.
Apparently, Denmark has toughend their rules on money laundering. Therefore, Danish banks refuse to accept all banknotes from abroad claiming they cannot comply with the new rules. (I find that very hard to believe). This has led to banks and exchange bureaus around the world (including Germany and Austria) to accept Danish banknotes for exchange into local currency. Meaning, people cannot exchange Danish banknotes outside of Denmark. To be blunt: Danish banknotes are useless outside of Denmark.
The problem caused by the Danes (either banks and/or government) have spilled into Norway and Sweden. Some foreign banks refuse to exchange Swedish and Norwegian banknotes, too.
Cashless is it all about control and profit: each transaction is recorded and for each one a percentage stays in the bank. The state profits from NOT printing/minting billions of notes/coins.
And we, the end user, only lose: imagine the situation where state decides who's “good” and who's “bad” and accordingly allows/bans the flow of digital assets.
Take a look at this:
As talk on cashless progresses, gold soars up. How much gold have YOU bought? So, if not you - WHO?!
This is what's happened in Sweden. And they've made it more expensive to use cash! If we keep listening to people extol the virtues of cashless transactions (nod with approval) then we're our own worse enemies.
It is coming to a change. It's not that obvious, yet, but a lot of things have changed in Sweden recently. After the Russian attack on Ukraine, the Swedish government and most parties in parliament, were quick to apply for a NATO membership - an application that is still pending.
After the Big Bear to the east showed their real intentions, the new mantra in Sweden is armament in all spheres, which includes cyber warfare and hence the availability of cash currency. The parliament has taken the step of securing cash currency by entrusting the national bank with the handling of cash, which previously was done by the large banks.
I don't even know if the French still accept the 200 euro note?
I don't know either. I'm in Germany and haven't been to France in quite a while. But I can tell you that most (but not all) cashiers do not even flinch when a customer is paying with a €200 note here in Germany. Of course, your purchase shouldn't be in the single digests.
What I find very worrisome is a new development.
Apparently, Denmark has toughend their rules on money laundering. Therefore, Danish banks refuse to accept all banknotes from abroad claiming they cannot comply with the new rules. (I find that very hard to believe). This has led to banks and exchange bureaus around the world (including Germany and Austria) to accept Danish banknotes for exchange into local currency. Meaning, people cannot exchange Danish banknotes outside of Denmark. To be blunt: Danish banknotes are useless outside of Denmark.
The problem caused by the Danes (either banks and/or government) have spilled into Norway and Sweden. Some foreign banks refuse to exchange Swedish and Norwegian banknotes, too.
The Danes chose to stay with the Krone, I didn't have a word to say, since I left DK in 1974 to live and work in Germany, so I'm NOT allowed to vote in DK…..
Apparently, Denmark has toughend their rules on money laundering. Therefore, Danish banks refuse to accept all banknotes from abroad claiming they cannot comply with the new rules. (I find that very hard to believe). This has led to banks and exchange bureaus around the world (including Germany and Austria) to accept Danish banknotes for exchange into local currency. Meaning, people cannot exchange Danish banknotes outside of Denmark. To be blunt: Danish banknotes are useless outside of Denmark.
The problem caused by the Danes (either banks and/or government) have spilled into Norway and Sweden. Some foreign banks refuse to exchange Swedish and Norwegian banknotes, too.
This is actually true. Lately, criminal individuals have been arrested in airports and sea ports trying to export large bags of cash currency. In Turkey they also arrested some criminals trying to smuggle 40 million in mainly Swedish kroner but also other currencies. Personally, I wonder who wants to smuggle large sums of Swedish kroner, which is known for being demonetized at some point?
I would always look at material charts with inflation adjustment. But yes when you print imaginary money like there is no tomorrow things start to adjust to reality (slowly but surely).
I first started getting alarmed by the BTCA in 2018 (5 years ago) & have only witness a Canadian trend towards cashless. Nothing has been done to support cash payments (or make cash more relevant) even though I read a study (by Bank of Canada researchers) which supported cash co-existing with credit.
Later, I watched this DW (German) documentary “How cash is becoming a thing of the past” which I found alarming. Brett Scott (26:26) sums up how I feel about the alarming push of the BTCA. Governments (& the UN) should stop supporting this lobby group (curtail their campaign to be rid of cash). Since Covid, the BTCA has been even more super successful in their campaign to privatize/control digital money. See this video.
Here's a couple of NUMISTA threads which more or less follow the same ideas:
ngdawaThe first one I know. In the area I live in are about 95% non-Swedes, and I have never seen anyone carrying around so much cash as they do. They are thousands and thousands of crowns in their pockets without a second thought. A few days ago I was going to change a 200 kronor note to smaller notes in a shop in my area. The cashier in the shop I was in couldn't help since he did needed the change himself. Then another customer entered and asked me what I needed. I told him what I needed had he put out a bundle of bills, and with ease could change my 200 note. He must've had at least 2,000 SEK (246 USD) in his pocket.
More than 90% of the banks doesn't handle cash anymore in Sweden. The few banks who still are willing to handle cash still have some restrictions. They only handle 500 kronor bills (61.5USD). Coins and all of the other 5 denominations of banknotes will be refused. People are even paying stuff for less than 1 USD with the credit card. The smaller shops, coffee shops or shops in the university areas often has a minimum limit of 2.5 USD for paying with credit cards. If you buy for less than 2.5 USD they will add like 10% or X SEK on the total amount. This isn't legal, but everyone des it anyways because it costs too much for them to do bank transactions for so little money.
Interesting.
It would appear that the currency system in Sweden is rigged by the banks (and possibly with the collusion of the government also?). The banks are failing in their historical tradition of providing a currency for the economy by lending to the public in legal tender.
This reminds me of Romania in 1990 - I spent some time there shortly after Ceausescu got the chop - two economies: the state economy based on the controlled currency (Lei in Romania; and it would appear now, ‘electronic’ payments in Sweden), and the black economy based on USD (and to a lesser degree GBP and DEM) which functioned separately, and largely on lower denomination notes (the currency brokers who pack large amounts of cash in low denominations, then in Romania, now in Sweden it would seem). A system like this has the potential to encourage tax invisibility as it emerges as a separate economy by necessity. These currency brokers may in time begin to charge a small percentage for the service of breaking high denomination notes into lower denominations, and emerge as an alternative system to the service not being provided by the banks [I would happily pay a 1% fee to obtain small cash to pay for my food item in the university canteen, conveniently priced at 1.99 to incur the illegal 10% surcharge).
Students it would seem no longer have the energy to protest at unfairness.
How primitive the Swedish banking system is becoming! This was a problem in Ireland both before and after the suspension of cash payments in 1797, when a lack of coin enabled and necessitated the issue and acceptance of low denomination notes by many issuers.
It is possibly illegal for banks to refuse transactions in currency notes of any amount if the currency notes are legal tender. Legal tender either is or isn't. Were I in Sweden, I would challenge this. There should be no taxes or charges on the use of a cash currency issued by a government. Citizens have a right to not be abused by a system - historically, in some jurisdictions banks have enjoyed concessions from government in return for being the distributors of currency to enable an economy to function. These days, some banks are choosing to forget this. As currency issuers, banks are obliged to facilitate the circulation of currency - perhaps it is different in Sweden. It seems to me that the activities of the Swedish banking system (and what you relate of the university is doing) is contrary to civil liberties and the freedom of a population to go about its business without pervasive surveillance, a bi-product of a cashless society.
It will be interesting to see how this social experiment in Sweden works itself out over the next two decades.
It is possibly illegal for banks to refuse transactions in currency notes of any amount if the currency notes are legal tender. Legal tender either is or isn't.
Swedish banks do not refuse transactions in currency notes, they make it as difficult as possible. The large banks have closed many of their physical bank offices and replaced them with ATM's, where it is possible to deposit cash currency as well as withdraw cash currency. Furthermore the company Bankomat ( https://www.bankomat.se/karta/), which is owned by the large banks, have ATM's all over Sweden where Swedish kronor can be withdrawn, but also euro in many places and USD, GBP, DKK and NOK in certain places - in airports and certain border towns.
It's not very difficult to get cash currency in Sweden, but if you live in the ghetto, it might be easier to exchange currency with the local hoodlums.
If I may slightly derail the conversation, I’ve found that the younger generations in the United States have no idea how to manage cash. The other day, I was in line for Chipotle, and their computer system crashed. (Chipotle is a Mexican restaurant chain. If you are visiting the US, you must try to eat there.) This was fine for me, as I was planning to pay with cash. However, because the checker was unable to immediately record the transaction, they would not serve me. The staff and manager did not possess the imagination to simply write down the purchase and record the transaction later.
I always have cash on hand in case of an emergency, but I now wonder how useful it would be.
Master Coin Referee
Coin referee for CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN, and SLV.
Revisor principal de monedas
Revisor de Numista para monedas de CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN y SLV.
If I may slightly derail the conversation, I’ve found that the younger generations in the United States have no idea how to manage cash. The other day, I was in line for Chipotle, and their computer system crashed. (Chipotle is a Mexican restaurant chain. If you are visiting the US, you must try to eat there.) This was fine for me, as I was planning to pay with cash. However, because the checker was unable to immediately record the transaction, they would not serve me. The staff and manager did not possess the imagination to simply write down the purchase and record the transaction later.
I always have cash on hand in case of an emergency, but I now wonder how useful it would be.
“I'm not paid for taking charge of the situation” is most likely what the majority of workers in chain stores would answer if you suggested a solution. Perhaps some of the young generations know, but they are not rewarded (or perhaps they think so) for having a responsible and flexible mindset.
I was just surprised that the manager was also unwilling to accept cash. Surely she would want to increase her sales and have a better performance review?
Master Coin Referee
Coin referee for CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN, and SLV.
Revisor principal de monedas
Revisor de Numista para monedas de CRI, GTM, HND, NIC, PAN y SLV.
Later, I watched this DW (German) documentary “How cash is becoming a thing of the past” which I found alarming. Brett Scott (26:26) sums up how I feel about the alarming push of the BTCA. Governments (& the UN) should stop supporting this lobby group (curtail their campaign to be rid of cash). Since Covid, the BTCA has been even more super successful in their campaign to privatize/control digital money. See this video.
Please check out the DW follow up video (2nd link). It may be more a question of security & apathy on the part of servers who are paid minimum wage.
On Monday, Australia's largest bank had system outages all day with 7.7 millions apps users had no access to their accounts. Well, no cash, no morning coffee then ….
I don't even know if the French still accept the 200 euro note?
I don't know either. I'm in Germany and haven't been to France in quite a while. But I can tell you that most (but not all) cashiers do not even flinch when a customer is paying with a €200 note here in Germany. Of course, your purchase shouldn't be in the single digits.
I've seen a few signs up in a few stores in Dunkerque, Versailles and Paris stating they don't accept the 200 and 500 Euro notes and in some places in Belgium, Netherlands and even in France they are not giving 1 and 2 cent coins in change.
Hi to whoever is reading this. Did you know that TYPEWRITER (on a QWERTY keyboard) is the longest word you can type using only the letters on one row of the keyboard.
I'll struggle in Sweden because my bank has large fees when using my debit card abroad therefore I exclusively use cash also as a student learning business cash is a great tool to budget with.
Its also due to inflation because its rare now to buy an item with a singular coin or a lower denomination note in some places. In my opinion people have the right t use cash were its logical because I would refuse it if someone decided to use a £50 note to pay for a coffee or buying a iPhone with 5p coins. All payment methods have their own benefits and drawbacks but because cash/coins has been around for over 2,000 years we have thorough knowledge of it compared to cards (70 years) and online payment apps (25 years).
Hi to whoever is reading this. Did you know that TYPEWRITER (on a QWERTY keyboard) is the longest word you can type using only the letters on one row of the keyboard.
I've seen a few signs up in a few stores in Dunkerque, Versailles and Paris stating they don't accept the 200 and 500 Euro notes and in some places in Belgium, Netherlands and even in France they are not giving 1 and 2 cent coins in change.
There is always a slight issue with 200 and 500 euro note denominations in that they are less common in circulation, and thus less familiar notes to businesses, and a big hit to take in the case of forgery.
In Ireland I have only ever seen 500 euro notes in circulation at coin shows!
In supermarkets the 200 euro is accepted, but a supervisor must verify such notes before the cashier will accept it (I did a test spend once!). It is interesting, as the most commonly encountered Euro forgeries in Ireland are of the 50 Euro note, followed by the 20.
I still don't understand why we should completely eliminate cash as soon as possible.
In my country we don't have self-checkout in convenience stores and it sucks when some cash-hating nouveau riche insisting to use cashless payment from a phone and force everyone in the queue to wait for 3-4 minutes for the US$1 transaction to be finished. And these kind of people won't budge until you see them facing situations such as during blackouts caused by the flood, where these convenience store will only accept cash (since the power is prioritized to the fridges) so these kind of people have to use cash or eat grass lol.
The local media affiliated to CNN and CNBC regularly post news about cashless benefits or “the doomsday for cash” while being oblivious to the fact that a lot of the population outside big cities are unbanked and able to use those e-Wallet apps. Even to those having bank accounts, every time people got their salary they simply withdrew cash from ATM, leaving the bare minimum amount in their account.
Sadly the government is not helping too… For instance, the public transport and toll roads uses smart cards issued by commercial banks and the government happily installed the top-up machine which charge you US$ 0.2 for every top-up. Imagine how much they gain from this cashless ploy!
On Monday, Australia's largest bank had system outages all day with 7.7 millions apps users had no access to their accounts. Well, no cash, no morning coffee then ….
We had the same thing happened here in Canada nearly a year ago (July 8th 2022) when Rogers, a telecommunications giant went down for a day. Nobody could use their CC, debit or any digital payments. This left only cash for commerce though I believe some businesses just shut down rather than use cash. This is what average Joe doesn't realize: once the cashless gene has left the bottle, try getting her back in! I think Swedes know that it is next to impossible to make cash relevant again (once you've forced everyone to pay by credit or nothing at all).
All banking was affected on 07/08 (so no ATM, no money transfers between businesses etc) & many bank employees could not do their jobs. There was quite a lot of backlash over the Rogers service outage but I knew that the Rogers multinational Co. is “too big to fail” (like a bank) so everything got swept under the rug & we're back at full steam ahead towards a cashless society. People were pissed (especially the younger generation who decided to go cashless) but everyone seems to have amnesia about how precarious being cashless is. Many CDN's are heavily in debt & live on their cards. “Budgeting” is old fashion & a 4 letter word.
Cash can co-exist alongside electronic payments (it always has previously) but the BTCA prefer eliminating its use altogether & people (opting for CC/debit). They are part of the problem. Big businesses are the biggest beneficiaries.
On Monday, Australia's largest bank had system outages all day with 7.7 millions apps users had no access to their accounts. Well, no cash, no morning coffee then ….
We had the same thing happened here in Canada nearly a year ago (July 8th 2022) when Rogers, a telecommunications giant went down for a day. Nobody could use their CC, debit or any digital payments. This left only cash for commerce though I believe some businesses just shut down rather than use cash. This is what average Joe doesn't realize: once the cashless gene has left the bottle, try getting her back in! I think Swedes know that it is next to impossible to make cash relevant again (once you've forced everyone to pay by credit or nothing at all).
Swedes also know that their banks, digital payments are off-line now and then for shorter or longer periods - very normal. One day they'll perhaps be fed up and have a spare stash of cash ready. Or they'll be prepping amenities for a longer period off-line - I am.
On Monday, Australia's largest bank had system outages all day with 7.7 millions apps users had no access to their accounts. Well, no cash, no morning coffee then ….
We had the same thing happened here in Canada nearly a year ago (July 8th 2022) when Rogers, a telecommunications giant went down for a day. Nobody could use their CC, debit or any digital payments. This left only cash for commerce though I believe some businesses just shut down rather than use cash. This is what average Joe doesn't realize: once the cashless gene has left the bottle, try getting her back in! I think Swedes know that it is next to impossible to make cash relevant again (once you've forced everyone to pay by credit or nothing at all).
Swedes also know that their banks, digital payments are off-line now and then for shorter or longer periods - very normal. One day they'll perhaps be fed up and have a spare stash of cash ready. Or they'll be prepping amenities for a longer period off-line - I am.
Reading this debate, very interesting that Sweden and various parts of the EU are hellbent on eliminating cash money because of greedy banks, gangsters, money laundering and people paying for items with 5p pieces or something.
In New Zealand its been static for a few years. Generally paying with Credit and Debit cards is appreciated, but cash is okay in most places. People paying with piles of small coins is not tolerated as coins are only legal tender to certain points. Our smallest coin, the 10 cents is quite a high value (over 5c US and Eurocents) and the limits on 10c, 20c and 50c in 1 transaction is $5 (Although merchants can use their discretion and allow more) and $20 for $1 and $2 coins. For notes there is no limit, so you could buy $10,000 worth of stuff with 2,000 $5 notes, although it would be strange!
But cash is slowly going out of fashion, mainly as kids are not taught about it in school anymore (The number of times I have to tell some clueless teenager or even adult cashier, the change from a $20 or something) and some still can't tell coins apart. Many shops tried to ban cash in the Covid era, but the law caught up with them now and also they have to clearly show signs saying they don't accept it. The money is printed as “Legal tender”, so there is no legitimate reason not accept it.
Noodling in NZ is dull! Some Kiwi money for you
The other reason its going out of fashion, is it is so worthless now. the $50 note is taking over from the $20 as our main workhorse, but try giving one to a bus driver or a dairy owner for a small purchase, they treat it like kryptonite. But seriously, my old 1930s £5 notes were over a weeks wages for most workers then, now a $100 (Equivalent to £50, average wage in 1936 weekly - £3/5/4), is not even a day's work for a Labourer ($22 an hour x 8 hours = $176).
Cash is only useful for small purchases, groceries use cards, all bills are paid electronically - many companies charge for paper statements and cash payments at the post office etc and this system is brutal, as some 20% of NZers are sub bank level, meaning they don't have a bank account, so live in a cash monae economy. Most are poor ethnic people and immigrants with a checkered financial past and the elderly are also vulnerable as banks and societies force everyone online. That may explain why so many immigrants in Sweden have cash, because the banks are too racist or stuck up to give them accounts.
As much as I love collecting the money of our nation, I do it defiance of modern society. Our banknotes up to the 1980s, were things to behold, now they are just worthless scraps of paper.
I love coins. Especially silver, gold and anything really old.
Member of the Royal Numismatic Society of New Zealand and the Auckland Numismatic Society
My guess is that many immigrants have cash because they have undeclared income and do whatever they used to do in their homeland with that sort of finance. Many immigrants come from failed states in the Middle East and Africa and either doesn't know or don't want to know how the Swedish society works like. They tend to get information from media in their homeland in their own language.
When I was at a hospital in Sweden, I experienced immigrant patients that were not able to communicate with others and understand their diagnosis on their own. This given as an example on how much some immigrants understand what is going on in Sweden in general terms. Many of them seems not to be interested in understanding. Other immigrants who do want to understand - and adapt, are, in general terms, unfortunately not treated with respect by parts of the population.
Some Swedes do the exact same thing - having undeclared income, but they know how to stay under the radar - some immigrants do not since their ignorance is obvious.
The first I did after seing this image was to open an ice cold beer. 😁
After having the first sip of the beer, I thought that someone could use those plastic cards in their collection, since that is also collected by some people. 😊
One of the teleco companies here experienced a 7+ hours outage yesterday. It started in the morning. Trains were cancelled. No morning coffee unless you have cash. Many small businesses can't take orders as the Internet was not working. Mobile phones were not working. We still do not know what caused the outage. Still no reasons given what caused the outage.
One of the teleco companies here experienced a 7+ hours outage yesterday. It started in the morning.
Cash is still King - Yes, and it is very, very bad that we voluntarily gave up issue money in precious metals. It worked for thousands of years and it had its reasons.
Today, silver-gold coins should be supplemented with platinum coins-rhodium or another metal or a combination thereof.
Yes, we are at a time when people have a chip implanted under their skin on their hand-finger and pay by transfer, also a watch, a ring, a phone or an outdated - historical payment with a plastic card. Everything works only if there is an electrical source and an internet signal.
Blackout or terrorist attack-it is enough for the non-adaptive population that holds a different opinion than the already minority domestic dying society and they decide to assert their interests the hard way by disconnecting the system and there is a problem in the given country.
I have already given the example here:
After the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy at the end of the First World War (in two days we have Veterans Day, the anniversary of the end of WW1) - so these days it happened in Vienna.
Nations (Czechs, Hungarians, etc.) broke away and no longer sent goods - grain - meat - flour, etc. to central Vienna. There was a famine in the big city - lack of everything. Banknote - paper money lost its value and not even whole bags were enough to pay for a loaf of bread.
And here the value of the metal in the coin like the King was shown.
Whoever came to the merchant and had the silver crown of Francis Joseph I or the tollar of Maria Theresa, etc., received bread for his children and could feed them.
Ducats for meat were always accepted - the one who was a numismatist was the king of the time.
That the situation cannot be repeated? That humanity has already learned its lesson? That we are different now - reasonable and know what we are doing?
Nothing, nothing... new - that person is always unteachable - we don't have the brain capacity for it - we allow ourselves to be manipulated.
The fact that we gave up money in precious metals one day we will cry - luckily there will be a numismatic fair in Berlin in February where it will be presented🤥(I start minting my denarius from a mix of gold, silver, and platinum, and put a .25 ruby in the center.)🤑
Mobile phones were not working. We still do not know what caused the outage. Still no reasons given what caused the outage.
The Singaporean company Singtel farts and is the owner of the company Optus that spreads the Internet - the consequences of half of Australia not working (trains-shops-banks)
,, Google and Facebook are arguing in one room and Wikipedia is yelling at them,,
Facebook says - I know everyone
Google screams - I will find out everything - I will find it - I will document it
Wikipedia-I know everything-I know
The door to the room opened - electricity entered and spoke ,, shut up and shut up everyone!,,
One of the teleco companies here experienced a 7+ hours outage yesterday. It started in the morning. Trains were cancelled. No morning coffee unless you have cash. Many small businesses can't take orders as the Internet was not working. Mobile phones were not working. We still do not know what caused the outage. Still no reasons given what caused the outage.
Russian hackers likely.
Thanks to Israel, Russia has a free pass now.
But its a sign we need to stop being so reliant on technology and particularly the internet for everything.
I love coins. Especially silver, gold and anything really old.
Member of the Royal Numismatic Society of New Zealand and the Auckland Numismatic Society
I spent most of Easter week looking for a cash machine in Stockholm so that I could get circulating currency, to no avail.
While I wanted to avoid the Forex machines and knew that Swedes are not keen to use cash, I was still surprised that even banks had removed ATMs, at least in all the banks offices that I managed to find (more than 10).
And, although I already had most of the current circulating notes in my collection, I was hoping to get some in better condition than I have; at the end, I must admit that I went home empty handed 😌.
I spent most of Easter week looking for a cash machine in Stockholm so that I could get circulating currency, to no avail.
While I wanted to avoid the Forex machines and knew that Swedes are not keen to use cash, I was still surprised that even banks had removed ATMs, at least in all the banks offices that I managed to find (more than 10).
And, although I already had most of the current circulating notes in my collection, I was hoping to get some in better condition than I have; at the end, I must admit that I went home empty handed 😌.
Thanks for the up-to-date insight into the (lack of) cash use in Sweden.
I have two questions regarding your post.
1. What is the situation in Finland? I supposed it was also largely a cashless country, isn't it so? Is it so different from Sweden regarding the availability of cash?
2. What is so bad about Forex machines? I'm actually going to use them when going to Scandinavia, so you got me a bit worried saying you avoid them 😁.
2. What is so bad about Forex machines? I'm actually going to use them when going to Scandinavia, so you got me a bit worried saying you avoid them 😁.
Thanks for the reply.
I'd say that you really shouldn't bother at all withdrawing money when in Scandinavia. I'm not sure if Denmark and Norway are as cashless as Sweden, but they're not far behind. In mlst stores people will look weirdly at you if you wanna pay in cash, and at restaurants I don't think it ever happends – except for probably McDonald's or Burger King.
I still have friends who hasn't seen the new coins and banknotes which came ibto circulation in 2016. They still have the old banknites laying around at home thinking they're legal tender. 🤷♂️
I spent most of Easter week looking for a cash machine in Stockholm so that I could get circulating currency, to no avail.
While I wanted to avoid the Forex machines and knew that Swedes are not keen to use cash, I was still surprised that even banks had removed ATMs, at least in all the banks offices that I managed to find (more than 10).
And, although I already had most of the current circulating notes in my collection, I was hoping to get some in better condition than I have; at the end, I must admit that I went home empty handed 😌.
Next time, ask your questions when you make research ahead of travelling.
In Sweden there are ATM's almost everywhere. There are several companies offering ATM services, one of them is Bankomat: https://www.bankomat.se/karta/ The website is in Swedish language only, unfortunately, but the page linked to comes with a map of where all their ATM's are situated.
Getting banknotes in at least aUNC condition is like winning the lottery, which means it's not impossible with a good strike of luck.
2. What is so bad about Forex machines? I'm actually going to use them when going to Scandinavia, so you got me a bit worried saying you avoid them 😁.
Thanks for the reply.
I'd say that you really shouldn't bother at all withdrawing money when in Scandinavia. I'm not sure if Denmark and Norway are as cashless as Sweden, but they're not far behind. In mlst stores people will look weirdly at you if you wanna pay in cash, and at restaurants I don't think it ever happends – except for probably McDonald's or Burger King.
I still have friends who hasn't seen the new coins and banknotes which came ibto circulation in 2016. They still have the old banknites laying around at home thinking they're legal tender. 🤷♂️
From my experience, Denmark is the most “benevolent” of the three countries. In most shops, they asked me whether I wanted to pay by cash or card and I've seen quite a lot of ATMs in Copenhagen. And I guess another important reason why people didn't use cash in restaurants was that they were much more expensive than in many other European countries.😊 Of course, these are just my impressions as a tourist, Danes could tell you better.
to @Deda Lebeda no need to worry about the Forex machines, I was just trying to use what locals might use and expected to find the ATMs easier as I would in Finland and because when I travel I feel more comfortable placing my card on a machine that is attached to a bank.
thanks @pennyless for the advice, I will certainly check those places next time I'm in Sweden.
Forex machines usually charge high transaction fees, especially if you are a foreigner and they also have bad exchange rates. Much more expensive to use than a bank.
They are not tied to any bank.
Czech Youtuber “Honest Guide” does a good series of videos about how these machines are everywhere and rip off tourists in Prague.
I love coins. Especially silver, gold and anything really old.
Member of the Royal Numismatic Society of New Zealand and the Auckland Numismatic Society
Good point, that's another reason I looked for a bank machine, by using certain cards you can get interbank rates or close to it and avoid withdrawal fees. When taking out a small amount (i.e. for collection purposes) the percent you pay is significant.
When you search for the location “Stockholm” you will get five “banks” to choose between and none of them are actually physical banks. Bankomat, Euronet 360 Finance and Nokas are ATM providers. Forex is the name of a chain of exchange offices. ICA Banken is an online bank without any offices, but their ATM services can be used in many of the nationwide ICA supermarkets.
but I suppose it is ultimately a political issue. It's funny in a way, because I think Phil and I are on rather disparate ends of the political spectrum (I'll just say that Bernie Sanders is probably not far enough to the left for my tastes) but on this issue we are in solid agreement.
