World coins chat: Spanish Netherlands

20 posts

» Quick access to the last post

The Spanish Netherlands refer to Habsburg possessions in the Low Countries between 1482 and 1713. These territories consisted of most of present-day Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and some parts of France and Germany. Seven northern provinces of the Netherlands seceded in 1581 and formed the Dutch Republic, while the southern provinces remained under Spanish control during and after the long struggle of the Eighty Years' War (1568-1648). This is why the period before 1581 is sometimes referred to as Habsburg Netherlands and thereafter the Spanish Netherlands.


The flag of the Spanish Netherlands was the same as in use by the Dukes of Burgundy, from which the Habsburgs inherited the Netherlands in 1482, despite the fact that Burgundy proper was ceded to France.

History
The Habsburgs, which had so far been powerful nobility in Austria and the Holy Roman Empire, acquired the Burgundian Netherlands when Archduke Maximilian married Mary of Burgundy. Their son Philip the Handsome became the first Habsburg ruler of the Netherlands in 1482. In addition, he married Joanna of Castile in 1496, the Infanta of Spain, which had just started to acquire lands in the New World. When their son Charles V acquired the throne of Spain in 1516, he became the first Habsburg ruler of an empire where the sun would never set.


The Spanish Netherlands as the Seventeen Provinces. As a result of the Dutch Revolt Zeeland (6), Holland (7), Utrecht (11), Guelders (13 and 17), Friesland (12), Groningen (14), Drenthe (15) and Overyssel (16) seceded to form the Dutch Republic. During long course of that war the north of Flanders (2), north of Brabant (8) and Maastricht (9) were captured by the Dutch Republic. The remainder was defended or recaptured by Spanish troops and would form the basis of what are now Belgium and Luxembourg. The green territory was the Bishopric of Liege, which was part of the Holy Roman Empire

The Spanish Netherlands had its capital in Brussels and consisted of 17 provinces which were quite autonomous. Charles' son Philip II (reign 1556-1598) faced the challenges of costly warfare against the Ottoman Empire in the Mediterranean and the rise of Protestantism in Northern Europe. He responded hawkishly by increasing taxes and the suppression of other religions. These were the main causes for the Eighty Years' War that started in 1568 and led to the declaration of independence of the Dutch Republic in 1581.

The aftermath of the Eighty Years' War (1568-1648)
The Spanish had consolidated control over an area that spans across present-day Belgium and Luxembourg. Bordered by a hostile Dutch Republic in the north and equally hostile and aspirational Kingdom of France to the south, Spain always needed to be prepared to defend its Netherlands. The once flourishing economy of Flanders was severely hampered by the exodus of protestant refugees and the Dutch blockade of the Scheldt, which blocked Antwerp's access to the North Sea.


Map of the Low Countries after 1648, with the Spanish Netherlands in yellow.

The rule of Philip's daughter Isabella (reign 1598-1621) and her husband Albert VII of Austria succeeded in pacifying the Spanish Netherlands by allowing a certain level of autonomy, which in turn marked the start of renewed economic growth and prosperity. The remaining decades of Spanish rule were marked by French invasions and the annexation of Flemish territories that currently are in France.

The War of the Spanish Succession (1700-1714) saw an Anglo-Dutch-Austrian alliance taking control of the Spanish Netherlands, passing control to the Austrian Habsburgs. Consequently, these territories were known as the Austrian Netherlands from 1714 until 1795, and would eventually emerge as the Kingdom of Belgium in 1830 after French (1795-1815) and Dutch rule.

Currency
The primary unit of account in the Spanish Netherlands was the Flemish Pound, which was derived from the Carolingian monetary system that had been in place since the 9th century. Similar to the British Pound, it was divided in 20 Shillings (Dutch: Schelling, French: Escalin), each of 12 Groats (Dutch: Groot, French: Gros). At that time, a Flemish Pound was worth half of an English Pound, 12 French Livres or 6 Dutch Guilders.

Although the Pound was the main unit of account, no coins were minted in that denomination. The most frequently used unit was therefore the Flemish Groat (French: Gros Flamand). The Groat was a silver coin of around 2 grams inspired by the Venetian Grosso. The Double Groat became known as the Stuiver in Dutch and Patard or Sol in French. The Groat itself was divided in 2 Liards (Dutch: Oord or Oort), which would remain a frequently used demomination for copper coins until the late 18th century. A Groat was worth 4 Duit, 8 Penningen, 12 Korten (French: Courtes) or 24 Myten (Mites).

Other small denominations
Braspenning: 2½ Groat
Peerdeken: ¼ Schelling or 3 Groats
Stoter: 5 Groats

Silver coinage
Patagon: a large silver coin worth 96 Groats. Similar to the Spanish Dollar, and worth 8 Reales.
Philipsdaalder or Écu Philippe: large silver coin first issued by Philip II in 1557. Initially worth 70 Groats but by 1620 equal to 100 Groats.
Ducaton: worth 120 Groats

Gold coinage
Noble: coin of English origin valued at 100 Groats. Also named Rozenobel.
Florin: imitations of the Florentine Fiorino d'Oro that became the Gulden. Depending on purity they were worth beteeen 40 and 56 Groats.
Albertin: valued at 2½ Florins or 100 Groats
Souverain: valued at 1 Pound, 6 Florins or 240 Groats
Ducat: originally a Venetian gold coin of 3.45 almost pure gold. In the Low Countries initially valued at 120 Groats, by 17th century 200 Groats.
Couronne au soleil: based on French Louis d'Or, originally a gold Écu of around 3.5 grams of 93% purity. Estimated at around 2/3rd of a Pound or 160 Groats.

The Spanish Netherlands section of the catalogue contains coins that are in name of the Spanish sovereign. Some provinces that were part of the Dutch Republic from 1581 still produced these coins for some years, usually because they were occupied by loyalist and/or Spanish troops.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/spanish-netherlands-1.html
Also minted under emperor Charles V have been silver reales: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces56157.html
They were 3.06g, high (0.934) fineness and half reales (similar weight but 0.458 billion).

Minting of reales was resumed under Albert and Elisabeth (Isabel) but halted soon, in favor of the introduction of the Patagon. This was foremost a trade coin.

While groats (and even several smaller denominations) initially were minted in billion, pure copper coinage would eventually make its way. The copper oord/liard became more popular in the 17th century, substituting the 16th century tiny billion pellet (1/2 groat).
Gwyde
The Spanish Netherlands catalog is a bit hard to understand. The reason is that most coins do not have the correct value.

The problem is that both the Flemish Pound (Livre Flamand) and the Guilder are used for the value. Now most coins are not in logical order. I would like to see one of the currencies chosen. The primary unit of account is the Flemish pount, but most coins were measured in Guilders/Florins and Stuivers/Sols. I have made the below list of all coins in the Spanish Netherlands. I left out the 1/2, 1/4 enz. varieties in this case.



I would like to edit the catolog, but first we need to sort out which currency we need to use.

Any thoughts?

Gr. Michael
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
The best option in my opinion is to use the Florin/Guilder currency. Otherwise it would be more difficult because in Brabant the Brabant Pound was used and the correct values are easier to identify in Guilders or Stuivers.

-1 Flemish Pound = 6 Guilders/Florins
-1 Brabant Pound = 4 Guilders/Florins.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Please contact Dazaya - referee for Spanish Netherlands. https://en.numista.com/echanges/profil.php?id=10409

If you would like, and Dazaya was not against, I would very like to make you a referee in Spanish Netherlands. <:D
Catalogue administrator
Hi Jarek,

Thank you! I will contact him tomorrow and if he is ok with it, I will contact you. I really like to be a referee for the Spanish Netherlands.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Not to forgot - thanks to Jokinen for making the article - did I mention that we could start transforming those into Numisdocs?
Catalogue administrator
Quote: "Jarcek"​Not to forgot - thanks to Jokinen for making the article - did I mention that we could start transforming those into Numisdocs?
​Speaking of Numisdocs, that seems to make me remember something.... :P

(Seriously though, if it's not good enough, you can just tell me.)
Corvera.
Quote: "Jarcek"​Please contact Dazaya - referee for Spanish Netherlands. https://en.numista.com/echanges/profil.php?id=10409

​If you would like, and Dazaya was not against, I would very like to make you a referee in Spanish Netherlands. <:D
Perfect, Michaelw90, he can be referee. I totally agree.
Best regards
Rafael (Dazaya)
Corvera.
Quote: "Dazaya"
Quote: "Jarcek"​Please contact Dazaya - referee for Spanish Netherlands. https://en.numista.com/echanges/profil.php?id=10409
​​
​​If you would like, and Dazaya was not against, I would very like to make you a referee in Spanish Netherlands. <:D
​Perfect, Michaelw90, he can be referee. I totally agree.
​Best regards
​Rafael (Dazaya)
​Sounds great, thank you! Only discussion left is the currency we are going to use. A few options and I will use a 1 Florin coin as example:
-1)Use the current livre flamand currency for all provinces (current situation) and change the values as they should be. Values are not easy to identify then.
-->For example a 1 Florin/Guilder coin: 1 Livre Flamand = 6 Florin. So 1 Florin = 1/6e Livre Flamand

-2)Use the current Livre Flamand currency for all provinces except Brabant (livre Brabant) en use the values as they should be. Even more difficult option as Flanders and Brabant use different calculation methods.
-->For example a 1 Florin/Guilder coin: 1 Livre Flamand = 6 Florin. So 1 Florin = 1/6e Livre Flamand and 1/4e Livre Brabant.

-3)Just use the name Livre Flamand for all provinces, but use the Florin (Guilder) denomination as leading currency.
-->For example a 1 Florin/Guilder coin: 1 Guilder = 1.

-4)Only use the Guilder denomination, als in name of the currency. So it Would be: Flanders - Guilder (1557-1714) instead of Flanders - Livre flamand (1557-1714) and 1 Florin would be value 1.

My choice would be 4.
Starting from 1521 all accountants were obligated to use the Karolus Guilder (1 Guilder=20 Stuivers) for calculation. This makes the Guilder/Florin the new unit of account in my opinion.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Good you revived this thread!

Flemish Pounds would work for Flanders indeed, but what about using Flemish Groats instead?

For Holland I would prefer Gulden, or even Stuiver, as the Gulden was not even part of the monetary system before early 1500's, and this era starts in 1472.

In other words good to look at it case by case.

Livre Flamand = Flemish Pound in English, in old textbooks even referred to as Pound Flemish or Pond Vlaams in Dutch. What language will be used?
Hi Jokinen,

In https://en.numista.com/forum/topic54460.html the below was decided if i'm correct. The Spanish Netherlands starts in 1506 following this thread.

Burgundian Netherlands (1384-1482) - Current Belgium + Netherlands
Starts with Philippe le Hardi
Burgundian Netherlands (1482-1506) - Current Belgium + Netherlands
Philippe le Bel was titular duke of Borgoña, Brabant, Limburg and Luxembourg, Count of Flanders, Habsburg, Hainaut, Holland and Zeeland, Tirol and Artois, and lord of Antwerp and Mechelen, among other cities, between 1482 and 1506, inheritance from his mother Mary of Burgundy. Maximilian of Habsburg was only regent for his age minority.
Spanish Netherlands (1506 -1713) - Current Belgium + Netherlands
Carlos V inherited the territories, being King of Spain. Philips II was also Habsburg, and Isabella, and Philips IV, and Charles II… but are spanish-austrian house.
Austrian Netherlands (1713-1795) Current Belgium
Correct

Flemmish Groat is a coin that later became the Flemish Pound. I don't think the Groat and the FLemmish Pound is a good unit of account for the Spanish Netherlands. The Guilder became the most used currency in the Southern Netherlands. Even though not many 1 Guilders were minted during the start of the 16th. century the stuivers were and are part of the Guilder currency. using stuivers as a currency doesn't seem logical. Using stuivers for the values might be. So 1 guilder is 20 stuivers, enz.

So I would think the Guilder is the best option for all provinces, even the ones the officialy used the Flemish Pound.

Language
Livre Flamand is fine for the French part of Numista, but i'm not sure what the policy is for the English part? In the Spanish Netherlands both French and Dutch were spoken, so one of those seems logical?
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
In my personal administration I would use the below: Spanish Netherlands starts form 1556 as Charles V/Carlos V was still titular Duke of Burgundy. But I won't bring this subject back up again:P

Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Language
For the names of the coins I will use Dutch or French depending on the province. For the almost full Dutch speaking provinces (Holland, Gueldre, Brabant, Flanders (bilangual) etc.) I will use the Dutch language. For the French speaking provinces (Artois, Heinaut etc) I will use the French translation of the coins.

Unit of account
Currently I think I will use the Gulden (Guilder) for the Dutch speaking provinces and and Livre Artois (Guilder) for the French speaking provinces, this way I use the guilder for the comple Spanish Netherlands. The livre Flamand will dissapear this way. I am not sure if everyone agrees. The livre flamand was for calculation, but almost all coins are parts of the Guilder/stuiver coinage.

What do you think?
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
I think it makes sense.

It will still take some effort to find effective nominal values for all these coins. Many values fluctuated over time. One source that could help you is named 'Beantwoording der prijsvraag over de munten' by D. Groebe, 1835. I just found it on Google books.
Thanks! I already did some research and I think I got most coins and values in a spreadsheet. Offcourse I will need to look closer in to the fluctuation values.

A nice task!
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
I just finished editing the County of Holland. It was a Dutch speaking county in the Spanish Netherlands. I translated the French names in Dutch and corrected the values.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/spanish-netherlands-13.html

If there are no complains I will edit the rest of the catalog. Offcourse I will keep the French speaking parts in French.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Looks good so far! I recently acquired a Verkade catalogue so can do some research as well.

And I got my first coin from Spanish Netherlands!

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces19971.html

Mine is from 1692, legend C FL and in better condition than the one in this catalogue. I will make some pictures later.
Nice! And great if you look in to the catalog! I have the 1695 of this type! Nice coins.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.

» Forum policy

Used time zone is UTC+2:00.
Current time is 22:58.