Does this 10 pen have a countermark or is it only damage?
If it is really countermarked, can it be rare? Is it just damage, or is it a heart or a sign, or something relating to the civil war or independence? It also has something red that looks like blood.
It would be interesting to know these: Is it only damaged, could it be related to the war and what is the red very small line on the coin?
I'm not any kind of authority on that issue, but it simply looks too crude to be any sort of a deliberate countermark to me; maybe something sharp and heavy fell onto the coin and left an indentation?
Also, what is this very small red line you refer to?
I collect countermarks and have often commented on them on Numista. I'm 99% certain this is not a countermark. The 1% left allows for a bad private countermark, which reduces the value of the coin to nothing anyway since a shapeless punch mark cannot be traced back to the person who made it. Even clear initials bring in only small value since it's usually not possible to identify the issuer. In most cases, the initials were enough to identify the issuer as long as the coin circulated locally; a 100+ years later, that connection is usually lost to us. In many cases, though, it could be that the coin was reused as a token. Letters and/or numerals can be used in such cases and, here again, we have usually no way of knowing who punched them and what the letters and numbers mean.
Usually eBay sellers try to pass such things as your coin with the description "counterstamped?" where they should actually say nothing or "damaged". Here is a good example of that on eBay via picclick. Note also this laughable "counterstamped, unique" nickel and yet another one which was defaced with a vise. As you can see, they're all with the same seller who has been trying to sell them for at least two years by now. He has even more, if you scroll down. Obviously, he got a collection of such "tooled" nickels from someone who was collecting them.
The red line is very small. It ends up in a spot in the rim, and a very small spot on the other side is also visible. But I guess I would have to go to a expert who also knows what it is. The line this side is more light than the 2mmx2mm spot on the other side.
Quote: "Camerinvs"I collect countermarks and have often commented on them on Numista. I'm 99% certain this is not a countermark. The 1% left allows for a bad private countermark, which reduces the value of the coin to nothing anyway since a shapeless punch mark cannot be traced back to the person who made it. Even clear initials bring in only small value since it's usually not possible to identify the issuer. In most cases, the initials were enough to identify the issuer as long as the coin circulated locally; a 100+ years later, that connection is usually lost to us. In many cases, though, it could be that the coin was reused as a token. Letters and/or numerals can be used in such cases and, here again, we have usually no way of knowing who punched them and what the letters and numbers mean.
Usually eBay sellers try to pass such things as your coin with the description "counterstamped?" where they should actually say nothing or "damaged". Here is a good example of that on eBay via picclick. Note also this laughable "counterstamped, unique" nickel and yet another one which was defaced with a vise. As you can see, they're all with the same seller who has been trying to sell them for at least two years by now. He has even more, if you scroll down. Obviously, he got a collection of such "tooled" nickels from someone who was collecting them.
Hi,
As a collector of countermarked coins from Canada, maybe you can help me with any information on this?
My personal list of scammers from Numista: erniemix, yvain, CassTaylor
@ Monninen >>> I understand that you would like to investigate the possibility that this coin is connected with some politico-military events, but the presence of blood wouldn't prove anything. It is most likely that blood on the surface wouldn't have survive all these years anyway. Does it look like something on the surface or corrosion?
@ Grinya >>> You sure knocked on the right door. I happen to have a very scarce book, W. Baker, Marked Impressions (2006). Here is his no. 1038:
He says "3, retrograde" which must be a mistake for "2, retrograde". Is it the same size as yours? He says the dimensions are 3 X 2 mm. Both hosts are colonial tokens from the 1850s, but not much else can be said, and Baker himself has nothing else to say beside the description. By the way, "Br. 919" is a reference to Breton's catalogue of coins and tokens.
Quote: "Camerinvs"I collect countermarks and have often commented on them on Numista. I'm 99% certain this is not a countermark. The 1% left allows for a bad private countermark, which reduces the value of the coin to nothing anyway since a shapeless punch mark cannot be traced back to the person who made it. Even clear initials bring in only small value since it's usually not possible to identify the issuer. In most cases, the initials were enough to identify the issuer as long as the coin circulated locally; a 100+ years later, that connection is usually lost to us. In many cases, though, it could be that the coin was reused as a token. Letters and/or numerals can be used in such cases and, here again, we have usually no way of knowing who punched them and what the letters and numbers mean.
Usually eBay sellers try to pass such things as your coin with the description "counterstamped?" where they should actually say nothing or "damaged". Here is a good example of that on eBay via picclick. Note also this laughable "counterstamped, unique" nickel and yet another one which was defaced with a vise. As you can see, they're all with the same seller who has been trying to sell them for at least two years by now. He has even more, if you scroll down. Obviously, he got a collection of such "tooled" nickels from someone who was collecting them.
I was hoping you'd weigh in on this. An informative post as always!
Here are two countermarks I got yesterday on an eBay auction, respectively over a George IV shilling and a 1844 half crown:
The first one is certainly of someone named H. C. McL... who lived in Melrose. The problem is that there is a million Melrose towns, villages, counties, etc. in Canada and the US.
The second one --a half crown(!)-- may be a Canadian countermark. It is attested in Brunk's reference book on countermarks on an 1832 Canadian token, and now this one (along with the Melrose c/m) was sold by a Canadian coin seller, which suggests it was in a Canadian collection previously.
Just to give you a sense of the value, I got the two of them for a total of CDN $39.99, and that includes postage.
How do you judge the value of a countermarked coin? Since there are so many countermarks, many of them with only one known in existence, I'm assuming there's no book/catalogue value on them.
Quote: "Monninen1"
The red line is very small. It ends up in a spot in the rim, and a very small spot on the other side is also visible. But I guess I would have to go to a expert who also knows what it is. The line this side is more light than the 2mmx2mm spot on the other side.
To return the topic I will ask: what does this line look like? I hope it is blood even tho the chances are pretty low. I have seen old blood. (I once hit my leg with an axe, jumped with one leg a few hundred meters to my house and while walking the stairs towards the door some blood dropped there, its still there.)
My question is that can it have been a coin once owned by a citizen who died during the civil war, his blood? Bodies were piled up and there is a quite large chance that if it is blood, it is from the civil war.
It can also be blood if someone has cut their finger (weirdly bleeding a lot and dripping on a coin) or if someone died during ww2 who held this coin, because it was legal tender until the 90s.
But, it can also be a red pen that caused this (but I guess not because of the pile on the rim) or other dark-red liquid.
Quote: "Monninen1"My question is that can it have been a coin once owned by a citizen who died during the civil war, his blood? Bodies were piled up and there is a quite large chance that if it is blood, it is from the civil war.
It could, but that's one in a thousand chances. I'd be surprised if the "countermark" had been caused by a bullet or some weapon.
And in reply to ...
Quote: "Mona"How do you judge the value of a countermarked coin? Since there are so many countermarks, many of them with only one known in existence, I'm assuming there's no book/catalogue value on them.
Quote: "Camerinvs"Prices vary widely, and dealers very often don't know what they are worth so there are huge price ranges. Some are ridiculously high ─ sometimes 5 to 10 times what I'm willing to pay. Recently I acquired a Canadian 1881 50¢ with a very neat countermark, DUQUETTE. The eBay seller started at $200, so I played the "let's wait and see" game until it was relisted several times, and eventually at $66, when I jumped in and got it.
General rules:
► Countermarks with an identified "issuer" are usually worth much more than unidentified or unidentifiable ones (numbers, single letters, common names such as JONES, etc.).
► Known vs. unknown country of origin also (most are unknown).
► At a comparable degree of rarity, official countermarks should be worth much more than private ones (most of the latter are known from less than 10 specimens, often only one).
► A complete and better preserved c/m should bring more money than a poorly stamped one.
Quote: "Monninen1"
The red line is very small. It ends up in a spot in the rim, and a very small spot on the other side is also visible. But I guess I would have to go to a expert who also knows what it is. The line this side is more light than the 2mmx2mm spot on the other side.
To return the topic I will ask: what does this line look like? I hope it is blood even tho the chances are pretty low. I have seen old blood. (I once hit my leg with an axe, jumped with one leg a few hundred meters to my house and while walking the stairs towards the door some blood dropped there, its still there.)
My question is that can it have been a coin once owned by a citizen who died during the civil war, his blood? Bodies were piled up and there is a quite large chance that if it is blood, it is from the civil war.
It can also be blood if someone has cut their finger (weirdly bleeding a lot and dripping on a coin) or if someone died during ww2 who held this coin, because it was legal tender until the 90s.
But, it can also be a red pen that caused this (but I guess not because of the pile on the rim) or other dark-red liquid.
I don't mean to disappoint, but hoping it's blood is probably just the romantic sentiment in all of us, and hoping against hope; and blood staying on metal for decades doesn't sound that likely to me...
Quote: "Monninen1"Its was kept in the same bag for at least 50 years
Let's say 70 years. That would bring us back to about 1948. But how do you actually know? I have on quite a few occasions verified family stories about their heirlooms, and in at least half of those stories, the object is too recent for the story. My sister-in-law holds on to a tea cup she claims goes back to her great-grand-mother in the late 1800s. Well, I checked the markings at the bottom and it cannot be earlier than the late 1940s, and more likely the 1950s or early 1960s. Three summers ago I identified a number of items for an antique dealer which were all at least 50 years younger than she thought.
Pedigree can bring value to coins but you need, for example, old collectors' description cards or evidence that your coin is the same as was described in some old auction. Likewise, coins from specific shipwrecks come with certificate of authenticity, though of course you have to be careful with fakes...
and yet another one which was defaced with a vise. As you can see, they're all with the same seller who has been trying to sell them for at least two years by now. He has even more, if you scroll down. Obviously, he got a collection of such "tooled" nickels from someone who was collecting them. 
