Not really a big problem but I felt as the country's referee I should bring it up anyway.
The Republic of Côte d'Ivoire has rejected official use of an English translation of it's French name for use in official capacity (e.g. at the UN) and "Ivory Coast", despite being a literal translation of it's name into English, holds no official status anywhere with regards to this nation state.
(Mostly due to the efforts of francophile President Félix Houphouët-Boigny to maintain closer ties to France post independence)
This was probably something that got lost in the early days of Numista, but I feel we should change this country's name in the English catalogue to "Côte d'Ivoire". Sounds counter-productive I know, but all coins under this country bear "REPUBLIQUE DE CÔTE D'IVOIRE" anyway, so there wouldn't be much confusion.
I think the argument is given that most of the English-speaking world continues to use "Ivory Coast". There is the similar more recent case of "Cape Verde" which has started using "Cabo Verde" as the official English name. I don't know how "Saint Thomas and Prince Islands" got changed to "Sao Tome and Principe". And "Burma" became "Myanmar" per the wish of its government. I understand there are efforts to change "Czech Republic" to "Czechia" and we may see efforts to change "Kazakhstan" to "Qazaqstan". I would be happy to see all countries use the forms they officially state they wish to use in English. There seems to be no consistency in Numista in this regard.
Quote: "PhilipBe"The point is not what they are calling there country. The point is what we are calling their country.
Ever seen the word Nepal on a coin of Nepal?
Ever seen Iran on a coin of Iran??
And what about Nippon?
In English the official term for their country is "Côte d'Ivoire" and nothing else. That's the name their representative sits behind at the UN, for example; while Germany sits behind "Germany" and not "Deutschland". Côte d'Ivoire IS what we are (supposed to) call their country (in English).
@jokinen See my reply to PhilipBe, that's the reason why I would like to see the change. Perhaps there is an alternate universe where they got colonised by Germany and now ask to be called "Elfenbeinküste" in official English language capacity.
@Will Yes, "Cabo Verde" should also be Cape Verde's name, same way as we should use "São Tome (e) Principe" for St. Thomas and Prince. Those are also the countries' names in official English language capacity: (Check out the names of Côte d'Ivoire, Cabo Verde and São Tome (e) Principe; this UN resolution vote is from 2017)
Quote: "derf"Côte d'Ivoire is not any where near English. It is French. It translates in ENGLISH as Ivory Coast.
That's not the point at all.
Refer to my above post about the name of the country as it is supposed to be used in English.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/sao_tome-et-principe-1.html
Would you rename this country "Saint Thomas and Prince"?
And you're NOT getting the Point. It NOT English. It's French .. Stop trying to correct things that don't need correcting, just for the sake of putting your finger print on it ...
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You make the strangest assumptions. Please read what I said. It's not about which language it is in at all, but what name they officially use when being in English. And in English, the official name of this country happens to be French.
If I were being as pedantic as you say I would be trying to change "Chad" in the EN catalogue to "Tchad" as it is in French.... but I am not, because in English language official capacity "Chad" is the name the country goes by in international affairs. This is not the case with "Ivory Coast".
"In 1986, the African government of Côte d'Ivoire declared the République de Côte d'Ivoire to be its formal name, and country must always be referred to by the French name. Despite this request by the government, the African country of Côte d'Ivoire is still incorrectly referred to as Ivory Coast for over 30 years."
My "assumptions" are not even close to strange... And I take offense to your implication ...
This is not the UN, nor is it SCWC Krause. This is Numista and does not divulge into international affairs, "and" it was better before all the whinny changes that have been made.
Does the word "Simplicity" have any meaning for you and the others that want to change Numista into their own liking ...
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Quote: "derf"My "assumptions" are not even close to strange... And I take offense to your implication ...
This is not the UN, nor is it SCWC Krause. This is Numista and does not divulge into international affairs, "and" it was better before all the whinny changes that have been made.
Does the word "Simplicity" have any meaning for you and the others that want to change Numista into their own liking ...
I'm not sure why you seem determined to fight me over this.... perhaps we should take it down a notch?
It's not divulging into international affairs to use a country's official name for it's listing, is it? I have given reasoning for why this change should be made, and it held against your initial point; now you opt to argue for 'simplicity'? If Taiwan can be moved to a 'Non UN members' section then we can afford to change a couple of names for accuracy vis-à-vis the UN.
And anyway, it's a strange argument you make that I'm trying to overcomplicate issues for the sake of it, especially since this change if implemented won't rearrange your swap list or anything.
Then while you're at this nit picky S***, change the United States to it's "OFFICIAL" name of "United States of America" .. AND, there are several others that need to be changed as well ...
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Quote: "derf"Then while you're at this nit picky S***, change the United States to it's "OFFICIAL" name of "United States of America" .. AND, there are several others that need to be changed as well ...
That's actually a really good suggestion as well!
Quote: "CassTaylor"That's not the point at all.
Refer to my above post about the name of the country as it is supposed to be used in English.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/sao_tome-et-principe-1.html
Would you rename this country "Saint Thomas and Prince"?
Talking about São Tomé and Príncipe, the currency list needs to be updated. The Nova Dobra is at top, for some reason.
And to the both of you, please mind the different between it's and its. //The Grammar Police
Shall we also change UK to "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?
That just trips off the tongue eh?
Of course we'd then have to create a seperate listing for coins issued by the Kingdon of Great Britain 1707 - 1800.
Or maybe we could continue using the commonly undertood and widely used "UK" and "Ivory Coast" so that people using the catalog won't be needing to trot over to Wikipedia to find out what name we're using this month?
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Quote: "pnightingale"Or maybe we could continue using the commonly undertood and widely used "UK" and "Ivory Coast" so that people using the catalog won't be needing to trot over to Wikipedia to find out what name we're using this month?
RIGHT ON POINT, Phil ... !!!!!!!
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Quote: "ngdawa"I don't see the problem here. Why shouldn't we use the country's official name?
Exactly.
Should we change "United States [of America]" to just "America" if we're using commonly used names? If we did use "Côte d'Ivoire" I don't think anyone not living under a rock would have to go look it up on Wikipedia to understand which Numista country is the one they're looking for. The name "Côte d'Ivoire" is literally on all the coins in that country's catalogue so I think anyone needing to use Wikipedia to clear that up is either a) actually living under a rock or b) incapable of linking the dots themselves.
It's not rocket science to connect those dots and use a country's official name, so I don't see how any "simplicity" argument is necessary here unless either of those points is the reason why you gentlemen are opposed to this? For someone who enjoys pointing out strawman arguments you sure do enjoy making them, Phil.
You know what, making this thread was a mistake. I'll discuss it with the catalogue admins privately.
Quote: "CassTaylor"If we did use "Côte d'Ivoire" I don't think anyone not living under a rock would have to go look it up on Wikipedia to understand which Numista country is the one they're looking for. The name "Côte d'Ivoire" is literally on all the coins in that country's catalogue so I think anyone needing to use Wikipedia to clear that up is either a) actually living under a rock or b) incapable of linking the dots themselves.
Quote: "PhilipBe"the only thing that matters is how we (numista) want to call the country.....
we can't just make up names..every country has a official name and that's the name we should be using, otherwise it will just be chaos and confusion in here..
Quote: "pnightingale"One word.....
Finland.
That is all.
care to evaluate?
I think you mean elaborate, and yes.
While most coin collectors understand the Finland / Soumi link, most people, especially outside of Scandinavia would not. I understand the desire to be accurate but not if it's at the expense of accessibility. Now consider this, a guy finds a coin marked Soumi, looks it up on Numista and finds it listed under Soumi and not Finland. He's quite happy and may spend the rest of his life unaware that his coin is from what he knows as Finland. Did we meet his needs? No of course not.
When I'm looking to find a coin or enter a new one I expect to be able to find the country at the first attempt. Japan should be Japan, not Nippon. Similarly Finland should be Finland, Egypt, Egypt. etc. etc. Yes, I can eventually work it out but why complicate the process in the first place by departing from accepted use?
I've no idea about other parts of the world but I've never heard an English speaker call Finland, Soumi or Japan, Nippon. Actually now that I think about it I'm betting that many would consider Nippon a vague WWII style insult, like Japs or Nips.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Quote: "pnightingale"Japan should be Japan, not Nippon. Similarly Finland should be Finland, Egypt, Egypt. etc. etc.
I've no idea about other parts of the world but I've never heard an English speaker call Finland, Soumi or Japan, Nippon.
This is simply because the official English name of Japan is Japan, and the official English name for Finland is Finland, just lile the official English name for "Saint Thomas and Prince" is São Tomé and Príncipe, and the official English name for "Ivory Coast" is Côte d'Ivoire.
Times are changing and countries colonials names are changing back to the local names, like Ceylon changed its official name to Sri Lanka, and Burma changed its official name to Myanmar. But I don't see anyone complaining about that. But when Ivory Coast has decided that they want their official English name to be Republic of Côte d'Ivoire, people just can't accept that. But how is that different from what I mentioned above?
Well it's not at all. Nobody is complaining that the people of the Ivory Coast or perhaps more accurately, their government want to change their name. I have no idea why the Sri Lanka / Ceylon switch was more readily accepted. Maybe it's because they are a Test Cricket playing nation so the new name became quickly familiar. I can only say that I along with every English speaker I know are quite comfortable with Sri Lanka and would actually find it odd to hear it referred to as Ceylon.
Bombay has changed to Mumbia, Calcutta is now Kolkat yet Bombay Gin is the same and nobody's referring to the Black Hole of Kolkat. I reckon it comes down to popular usage. Most English speakers are going to refer to Côte d'Ivoire as the Ivory Coast for the foreseeable future. I don't really care, just pick a name and stick with it. If it some point it becomes the norm, we'll change it then. But we're not in the business of listing official names. We use the commonly accepted ones, in English, just the same as we do with currencies and rulers.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
But, if it's more about "popular usage" I reckon the chabge will never happen. Think about it. How often do you talk about Côte d'Ivoire? Maybe during the football wold cup, and then the abbrevation is CVI, not IVC. So I think that says sonething about what name to use.
Quote: "pnightingale"We use the commonly accepted ones, in English, just the same as we do with currencies and rulers.
But do we really do that? Then, what about these, for example:
Italy, 1 Centesimo, Vittorio Emanuele II
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces2275.html
It's not, Italy, 1 Cent, Victor Emanuel as a standard English version would be.
Czech Republic (Czechia), 20 Haléřů
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces2151.html
I believe an English name would simply be 20 Halers.
Spain, 1 Céntimo, Alfonso XIII
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces2839.html
In english it would be 1 Cent, Alfons XIII, right?
Sweden, 50 Öre, Carl XVI Gustaf
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces1507.html
It isn't 50 Ores (or Cents), Charles XVI Gustaf.
These are just some examples that neither currencies nor rulers' names are in "English".
Quote: "derf"A solution to the present perceived problem would be to delete the "ENGLISH" side of the site .. Bingo, no more English problems ...!!!!!
News flash! There is no English side of this site. There is a French side and an INTERNATIONAL side. Now you are in the INTERNATIONAL side. Welcome!
Quote: "derf"A solution to the present perceived problem would be to delete the "ENGLISH" side of the site .. Bingo, no more English problems ...!!!!!
News flash!
There is no English side of this site. There is a French side and an INTERNATIONAL side. Now you are in the INTERNATIONAL side. Welcome!
SO,... This is the INTERNATIONAL Numista Website.. Well, other breaking news ... English is the only INTERNATIONAL language. So, therefore my previous suggestion still stands ....
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Quote: "derf"A solution to the present perceived problem would be to delete the "ENGLISH" side of the site .. Bingo, no more English problems ...!!!!!
My Strawman Argument Detector™ is off the charts on this comment....
"The toilet isn't flushing, let's burn down the house! Bingo, no more plumbing problems!"
But anyway, there seem to be 2 arguments being used against me here; the "use English" one and the "popular usage/simplicity" one.
About the "it's the English catalogue" argument, I've already taken down that one before- this is NOT intended to use countries' local names (Suomi, Tchad, 日本, etc.) but to use their names in English (Finland, Chad, Japan). It just happens that a couple of countries' names in English are French/Portuguese words. This revelation then usually leads into the other argument.... which name is more "commonly used".
About that, there are many people, even in the UK itself who "commonly", but incorrectly say "England" or "Britain" when referring to the United Kingdom. Conversely, if the country list has a "Non UN members" section, I think we can also use the UN English names which would also leave out the pedantry of having to expand them to their fullest extent ("United Kingdom of GB & NI", "French Republic" or "United Mexican States").
I've marked the topic as solved, let's agree to disagree and we'll see what happens, alright?
If you use the argument that we should use Cote d'Ivoire because that is what they call themselves then I'm going to go onto the French forums and demand that they change my country on their catalogue from "Nouvelle Zealande" to "New Zealand" This is the English forum, we use what English speakers call the country
Quote: "pnightingale"Shall we also change UK to "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?
That just trips off the tongue eh?
Of course we'd then have to create a seperate listing for coins issued by the Kingdon of Great Britain 1707 - 1800.
Or maybe we could continue using the commonly undertood and widely used "UK" and "Ivory Coast" so that people using the catalog won't be needing to trot over to Wikipedia to find out what name we're using this month?
And Australia should be "Commonwealth of Australia" and thusly moved from A to C on the country list. Gambia should be changed to "Islamic Republic of The Gambia" and moved from G to I on the country list. It may be tricky for a novice collector to find, but at least everything will be nice and official.
Quote: "neilithicman"If you use the argument that we should use Cote d'Ivoire because that is what they call themselves then I'm going to go onto the French forums and demand that they change my country on their catalogue from "Nouvelle Zealande" to "New Zealand" This is the English forum, we use what English speakers call the country
This screenshot is from the French forum, where everything is in French.
Now, for the 3,441,087,730,107,004th time, this is the International forum, where the official names are used.
Also, an English forumdoes not exist. When will people understand that?
Quote: "ngdawa"Also, an English forumdoes not exist. When will people understand that?
Then explain why the URL for this site begins with "en" and not "in"
https://en.numista.com/
Oh, clever! Well, you got me there.....
I will tell you, en stands for English, the language that is used for communication. If it would be in it would indicate that it's Indonesian, which not many people on this site speaks.
English is the international language of communication, since it's the only language spoken on every continent. This is due to the British colonised and conquered land across the globe. That's why English is used on the international forum.
Also, to claim the whole forum to oneself could cause uncomfort and people could feel excluded since they don't speak English well. Why is there then an English forum but not a Hindi forum?
Why do I always have to explain all this to a certain nationality?
Quote: "ngdawa"
This screenshot is from the French forum, where everything is in French.
Now, for the 3,441,087,730,107,004th time, this is the International forum, where the official names are used.
Also, an English forumdoes not exist. When will people understand that?
Even if it's the English forum, the English language name of Côte d'Ivoire isCôte d'Ivoire anyway.
Quote: "ngdawa"
This screenshot is from the French forum, where everything is in French.
Now, for the 3,441,087,730,107,004th time, this is the International forum, where the official names are used.
Also, an English forumdoes not exist. When will people understand that?
Even if it's the English forum, the English language name of Côte d'Ivoire isCôte d'Ivoire anyway.
the English Language of Côte d'Ivoire is the Ivory Coast .....
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Quote: "CassTaylor"
Even if it's the English forum, the English language name of Côte d'Ivoire isCôte d'Ivoire anyway.
the English Language of Côte d'Ivoire is the Ivory Coast .....
"Ivory Coast" is what English-speakers ignorant of the situation call Côte d'Ivoire. It's like a redneck saying "I'm from America!".
"Côte d'Ivoire" is what knowledgable English speakers call Côte d'Ivoire in English, in official capacity. It's like a diplomat saying "I'm from the United States of America".
"In 1986, the African government of Côte d'Ivoire declared the République de Côte d'Ivoire to be its formal name, and country must always be referred to by the French name. Despite this request by the government, the African country of Côte d'Ivoire is still incorrectly referred to as Ivory Coast for over 30 years."
Quote: "CassTaylor"Even if it's the English forum, the English language name of Côte d'Ivoire isCôte d'Ivoire anyway.
the English Language of Côte d'Ivoire is the Ivory Coast .....
"Ivory Coast" is what English-speakers ignorant of the situation call Côte d'Ivoire.
"Côte d'Ivoire" is what English speakers call Côte d'Ivoire in English, in official capacity.
http://www.theafricangourmet.com/2016/11/ivory-coast-does-not-exist-her-name-is.html
"In 1986, the African government of Côte d'Ivoire declared the République de Côte d'Ivoire to be its formal name, and country must always be referred to by the French name. Despite this request by the government, the African country of Côte d'Ivoire is still incorrectly referred to as Ivory Coast for over 30 years."
So now English speakers are ignorant ..
And since this is not UN Official business, It's IVORY COAST .....
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Quote: "pnightingale"Shall we also change UK to "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?
That just trips off the tongue eh?
Of course we'd then have to create a seperate listing for coins issued by the Kingdon of Great Britain 1707 - 1800.
Or maybe we could continue using the commonly undertood and widely used "UK" and "Ivory Coast" so that people using the catalog won't be needing to trot over to Wikipedia to find out what name we're using this month?
And Australia should be "Commonwealth of Australia" and thusly moved from A to C on the country list. Gambia should be changed to "Islamic Republic of The Gambia" and moved from G to I on the country list. It may be tricky for a novice collector to find, but at least everything will be nice and official.
Actually, using Australia's title (or whatever it is called) would not switch its order in the country list. It would be named Australia, Commonwealth of, like nearly every other country with a title. Similarly, Gambia, Islamic Republic of the would be used for that country.
Although, I do not think changing names and adding titles are that comparable. This is about changing the name to Côte d'Ivoire (which I do support), and not to Côte d'Ivoire, Republic of. Adding titles is good for diferenciating different governments of a country, like the places under China, but if there is nothing that needs diferenciating, the titles would not add much.
Quote: "Sulfur"
Although, I do not think changing names and adding titles are that comparable. This is about changing the name to Côte d'Ivoire (which I do support), and not to Côte d'Ivoire, Republic of. Adding titles is good for diferenciating different governments of a country, like the places under China, but if there is nothing that needs diferenciating, the titles would not add much.
I just can't understand how this topic just can go on and on. Just chance the name already!
We already have São Tomé and Príncipe and not Saint Thomas and Prince, but I don't see a long infected argumention about that. What's so difference with Côte d'Ivoire?
Quote: "ngdawa"I just can't understand how this topic just can go on and on. Just chance the name already!
We already have São Tomé and Príncipe and not Saint Thomas and Prince, but I don't see a long infected argumention about that. What's so difference with Côte d'Ivoire?
I can see from your perspective that if Sao Tome e Principe is simply in Portuguese why not just change Ivory Coast to the French Cote d'Ivoire logically I can see that argument. I would approach it this way. It currently exists as Ivory Coast and that's the most comfortable (if incorrect thanks to ivoirian law) way to have it written for people who do not speak French as a first language. It is hard to determine why exactly we have grown used to the former and not the latter...diving into the mechanics of language usage can be difficult. My own personal opinion is normally if its not broken don't fix it. In this case, 99% of the people on here can readily identify the country labeled Ivory Coast and it has worked just fine since the website's inception. It is sort of like the issue of replay in sports...its there to help you get the call correct. However, if the evidence isn't strong enough you let the call on the field stand. Not everything needs fixing.
We aren't trying to run the CIA world fact book or the UN...its just a coin website nothing more nothing less.
Quote: "PhilipBe"The point is not what they are calling there country. The point is what we are calling their country.
Ever seen the word Nepal on a coin of Nepal?
Ever seen Iran on a coin of Iran??
And what about Nippon?
of course I’ve see the word Nepal on Nepali coins.. its very much written in the devnagari script. That’s how they pronounce and say their name in English officially.
India on the other hand is officially “Bharat” if you choose to say it in Hindi.
Im sure if you could read Persian/farsi, you will see “Jumriyat Islami Iran” on Iranian coins as well.
I don’t mean to be pedantic, but your reasoning in this particular instance was off base
Quote: "CassTaylor"Absolutely, consider these ones to be a start.
Ivory Coast -> Côte d'Ivoire
Cape Verde -> Cabo Verde
United States -> United States of America
etc....
See, the world didn't end, did it?
Since we are on it, and i had made this request before.... can we have the Subsection say “Republic of India” under the broad “India” category. It simply says India for the country that was formed post 1947 which on a technical and indeed practical basis isn’t helpful
Quote: "CassTaylor"Absolutely, consider these ones to be a start.
Ivory Coast -> Côte d'Ivoire
Cape Verde -> Cabo Verde
United States -> United States of America
etc....
See, the world didn't end, did it?
Since we are on it, and i had made this request before.... can we have the Subsection say “Republic of India” under the broad “India” category. It simply says India for the country that was formed post 1947 which on a technical and indeed practical basis isn’t helpful
Didn't it use to say India - Republic before? (for the post-independence Indian coinage).
Guys, this is the third time I've tried to stop this thread before feelings get hurt and egos get bruised... and yet it continues to roll on every time I turn my back.
Upon enquiry, the Numista team has no current intention to make any of the changes outlined in the thread above for now, so no further replies to the topic are necessary, and let's just drop the subject until the next rearrangement of the Numista country list, whenever that may be.
Thank you to everyone who voiced their opinion on the subject in a reasonable manner.
Quote: "pnightingale""a certain nationality..."
"like a redneck...."
This topic really took a distasteful turn eh? I had to double check I wasn't logged in to the Daily Stormer by mistake.
you really need the last word eh? you're not even american, so why behave like your feelings got hurt by the redneck comment?
Hello, is it not a good idea to use Dutch for the different country names?
Than Cote de Ivoire will be Ivoorkust. I guess this is THE solution to stop this useless conversation/quarrel...
Casstaylor I have no idea how you manage to offend people with almost every post you make lately. Some passive aggressive stuff going on that maybe reflects life outside the site, I dunno.
And Côte d'Ivoire LITERALLY means Ivory Coast in English. Yes, the government asked to be referred to by their French name in diplomatic communications, but there's no evidence that it's representative of the people there.
