The Chinese yuan is supposed to be the oldest system of currency still in use, as well as the oldest decimal one (1000 cash, later 100 fen or 10 jiao = 1 yuan), that system being over two thousand years old; but since only 1949 a new "currency", the Renmenbi has been used in the People's Republic of China; and the New Taiwan dollar in the Republic of China.
It seems like we are using the latter definition, so China is out. Perhaps the pound sterling has the Maltese Scudo beat, since it originated in 1158; and that currency itself is still in use today?
Can we really consider the Maltese scudo as a currency still in use ? I guess those coins are not intended to circulate anymore : it’s just for collectors.
Dinar and dirham are old currencies as well (they started with the umayyads during the 7th century) but the countries who are using them are not that old (depend the definition of country too : other dynasties were ruling those places before ...).
Quote: "numinis"Do you mean: what nondemonetized coins are still in circulation? Then perhaps Swiss or US small denomination coins are the oldest.
I think he means the oldest currency that is still in use, not the oldest coins; e.g. the pound sterling is a pretty old currency still in use, but you probably won't find a lot of old coins of that currency in circulation today, like Victorian sixpences for example.
The oldest currency unit of account that remained valid is undoubtedly British Pound Sterling. £1 in 1158 is still one Pound today.
Before the Euro the Dutch Gulden was one of the oldest currencies, dating back to the 15th century, but it did have a short interruption during the French annexation in 1810-1814.
The Swiss Franc only dates back to 1848, and the Scandinavian Krones to 1873. In the Americas the Dollar is the oldest continuous currency, as all those Pesos were revalued or reformed at least once in history. I believe the USD dates back to 1793 on top my head.
In Asia Thai Baht is pretty old, but not sure exactly how old.
The Russian Rouble is an old currency too. Even if it was called Soviet Rouble for a short period in it's long history, it was still the currency of Russia and the territories controlled by Russia.
The first Hungarian Forint coin was minted in 1325.
The answer depends on identity criteria. For example, is a currency after decimalization the same as before? If exchanging "old" Roubles to "new" Roubles (not at 1:1 rate) didn't mean a switch to a new currency, why the switch to Euro did? It is true that only the name matters?
Quote: "BSmith"The Russian Rouble is an old currency too. Even if it was called Soviet Rouble for a short period in it's long history, it was still the currency of Russia and the territories controlled by Russia.
The first Hungarian Forint coin was minted in 1325.
Yes those are pretty old as well, but there is no continuity as a unit of account. Both were redenominated many times in history.
Quote: "numinis"The answer depends on identity criteria. For example, is a currency after decimalization the same as before? If exchanging "old" Roubles to "new" Roubles (not at 1:1 rate) didn't mean a switch to a new currency, why the switch to Euro did? It is true that only the name matters?
Yeah, I agree; there's also the question of whether revaluation of currency makes it start over again (e.g. the New Franc in 1960 revalued at 1:100 old francs). The Franc, which began only at 1795 (to either 1960 or 2001) isn't really a contender here, but let me raise a new question; which is the longest lived currency system (doesn't have to still be in use today)?
Probably something from the Romans or Chinese, but I don't know.
Quote: "Trp"Chinese cash coins must be the oldest system: 4th century BC - 20th century AD. Earliest coins were valid until the end of the system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_(Chinese_coin)
the greek drachma is a strong contenstant too, in this case..
Quote: "Trp"Chinese cash coins must be the oldest system: 4th century BC - 20th century AD. Earliest coins were valid until the end of the system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_(Chinese_coin)
the greek drachma is a strong contenstant too, in this case..
Except that modern Greece has no historical predecessor, maybe minus the Byzantines who fell almost 400 years prior, who didn’t even use the Drachma.
Quote: "Trp"Chinese cash coins must be the oldest system: 4th century BC - 20th century AD. Earliest coins were valid until the end of the system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_(Chinese_coin)
the greek drachma is a strong contenstant too, in this case..
Except that modern Greece has no historical predecessor, maybe minus the Byzantines who fell almost 400 years prior, who didn’t even use the Drachma.
what do you mean? the drachma had been in use since 700 bc until it was switched to the euro..or were there a gap of a few centuries w/o any circulating drachmas?
Greece didn't mint coins on its own during centuries.
Romans occupied Greece, followed by the Byzantine Empire, the Crusaders States and the Ottoman Empire : from about 100BC to 1832, this region used the currencies of those entities (aureus, solidus, deniers, dinars...) and was not considered as a country.
Drachms appear during the Antiquity in Greece and persisted a bit in Orient with the Sasanids / Hunnic Empires and then with the Gujura Confederacy until about 1000 AD. From this time to 1832, nobody seems to use this term anymore.
However, the islamic dirham and the armenian dram came from this denomination.
For me China had the longest and more stable currency.
The history of the Indian rupee traces back to Ancient India in circa 6th century BCE, ancient India was one of the earliest issuers of coins in the world, along with the Chinese wen and Lydian staters.
Same about this one : the term "rupee" seems to have disapeared during centuries.
Drachms and local currencies probably replaced it during the Antiquity.
The Islamic conquests bring with them the dinars in some areas of this territory and those currencies were followed by the jital and the tanka in the feudal period as well.
I don't recall having heard about ruppees minted between 200 BC and 1540 AD.
We seem to be agreed that it's either the Chinese cash (?BC- 1912, oldest currency system) or the pound sterling (1158-present, actual oldest currency still circulating).
About those dinars/dirhams and rupees, I don't know as much about their numismatic or historic background but they seem to have been used in various forms by different states over a large region, whereas Chinese cash remained predominantly the same over thousands of years, denomination wise....
Cowry shells are still in use in East New Britain as a legal currency, which means that this is the oldest currency still in use and also the oldest currency system as it has the same currency unit since it was introduced thousands years ago.
I wouldn't count the current pounds sterling as the same as the one in 1158, it's a completely different system even though they kept the same name. You can't take a pound coin to the bank and ask them to break it up into 20 shillings for you. I think the oldest one that is still the same as when it was introduced is the Swiss Franc.
Quote: "neilithicman"I wouldn't count the current pounds sterling as the same as the one in 1158, it's a completely different system even though they kept the same name. You can't take a pound coin to the bank and ask them to break it up into 20 shillings for you. I think the oldest one that is still the same as when it was introduced is the Swiss Franc.
Agreed on the UK issues, that all came to an end in 1967 but the US has Switzerland beat by more than 50 years. All US coins remain legal tender although you'd have to be pretty dumb to try to spend a large cent.
It's not just because of the face value vs numismatic value. We've had many examples of people being lead away in handcuffs by low IQ cops after trying to spend non current money. Even coins still in production such as the JFK 1/2s and Presidential dollars are going to confuse the average checkout girl. She calls her equally ignorant quota hire manager who calls the cops who promptly taze you for passing off counterfeit money. If you resist you will likely get badly beaten or at worst shot. A two dollar bill will get you a good old fashioned waterboarding session.
Quote: "neilithicman"I wouldn't count the current pounds sterling as the same as the one in 1158, it's a completely different system even though they kept the same name. You can't take a pound coin to the bank and ask them to break it up into 20 shillings for you. I think the oldest one that is still the same as when it was introduced is the Swiss Franc.
But you can break £1 into exactly 20 5p coins- which are the decimal successor, value-wise to the shilling. It really depends on how you define the operative words "currency" or "currency system".
In this case (where we are looking for old currencies), the circulating designs of Swiss Franc coins may be the oldest, but just off the top of my head the United States Dollar is a currency with a decimal system that is still the same as when it was introduced, and it dates some 60 years further back than the CHF.
Quote: "neilithicman"I wouldn't count the current pounds sterling as the same as the one in 1158, it's a completely different system even though they kept the same name. You can't take a pound coin to the bank and ask them to break it up into 20 shillings for you. I think the oldest one that is still the same as when it was introduced is the Swiss Franc.
But you can break £1 into exactly 20 5p coins- which are the decimal successor, value-wise to the shilling. It really depends on how you define the operative words "currency" or "currency system".
In this case (where we are looking for old currencies), the circulating designs of Swiss Franc coins may be the oldest, but just off the top of my head the United States Dollar is a currency with a decimal system that is still the same as when it was introduced, and it dates some 60 years further back than the CHF.
don't you mean "after reading Phil's post right above mine" rather than "off the top of my head"?
And there were 12 pennies in a shilling, can you take a 5p coin into the bank and ask for 12 pennies?
Quote: "neilithicman"
don't you mean "after reading Phil's post right above mine" rather than "off the top of my head"?
And there were 12 pennies in a shilling, can you take a 5p coin into the bank and ask for 12 pennies?
I didn't read that post, so it genuinely was off the top of my head. It's still correct.
And don't forget that the decimal penny was an entirely new unit of the pound sterling created during decimalisation not equivalent to the old penny, worth 1/240th of a pound, but 1/100th; hence the term "New Penny". There were 12 old pennies (d) in a shilling, but only 5 new pence in a 5p coin, even though both the shilling and 5p were worth 1/20th of a pound.
So you wouldn't be able to exchange 5 new pence for 12 new pence, but 5p is indeed worth 12 old pennies. Proving my point, that decimalisation changes the operative units of a currency, but doesn't make it a new currency that just happens to have the same name as the old one like you said. Whether you "count" it as such or not is up to you, but just semantics at the end of the day- hence the second sentence of my last post about definition.
This topic is really amusing, especially due to the many interpretations of currency. Phil convinced me, I am never going to think about trying to spend a Half Dollar across the pond.
But speaking of British Pounds, in my limited financial world the British Pound did not change with decimalisation. A pre-1971 contract referencing £sd is still valid in decimal £. There are perpetual government bonds out there issued during WW2 that are still valid and for which the coupons are still paid.
The Indian Rupee is also really old, but I'm not sure about any current legal status of old claims on Rupee. It's possible that even these go back more than 2 centuries. Difference is that the Rupee lost much more purchasing power than Sterling did. And a current Pound is about equal to Threepence a century ago.
Sorry ─ I didn't yet read all the posts above, but here are a few linguistic points.
I think we have to distinguish between the name of a currency and the currency itself whatever its name. [EDIT: OK! I see this point is being made above! So, I stand with those who look at the currency system whatever its name!]
It so happens that the British pound wasn't fully "rechristened" after the old sterling system was cancelled, but it was cancelled (on February 15th 1971 I believe). The system was basically on life support until (unfortunately) the remnants were demonetized (especially the shilling which was current for 5 new pence until December 31st 1990). But why demonetize the old coins I don't know.
Based on the name, one could argue that the dirham is the oldest currency since it goes back to the Greek drachma ("dirham" is the Arabic version of "drachma"). The Athenian "owl" ─i.e. a tetradrachma = 4-drachma coin─ was struck from the 6th century BCE. [EDIT: I see Cycnos pointed this out and the fact that the modern Greek drachma is not the same as the ancient one. Agreed.] I have not read all the posts above, so perhaps the rupee is older ─ I don't know.
[EDIT: Note that the French franc is kind of on life support like the British pound. You can still use postage stamps in francs. The French Postes considered them no longer current, but they lost the legal battle over this. There's an official rate of exchanged between the franc and the euro.]
As for a currency that has been in continuous use unchanged (in spite of inflation which made the lower denominations valueless), is there anything older than the US dollar?
Quote: "CassTaylor"So you wouldn't be able to exchange 5 new pence for 12 new pence, but 5p is indeed worth 12 old pennies. Proving my point, that decimalisation changes the operative units of a currency, but doesn't make it a new currency that just happens to have the same name as the old one like you said. Whether you "count" it as such or not is up to you, but just semantics at the end of the day- hence the second sentence of my last post about definition.
What makes a new currency then? New Zealand and Australia, Fiji, South Africa, etc had pounds as well and when we switched to a decimal system around the same time as the UK did. We decided to change the name of our units of currency from pounds and pence to dollars and cents. We all went from a 240p/pound system to a decimal system, we just happened to change the name of ours while the UK kept theirs because the name "pound sterling" had the long history. So why would you say that NZ, Australia, Fiji, South Africa, etc changed to a different currency but the UK didn't? Solely because they kept the same name?
Well, I believe UK (and Ireland, for that matter) didn't start a new currency in 1971, they just decimalised an existing one, because the pound sterling's base unit (£1) didn't change in value overnight, staying the same, but began using a denomination worth 1/100th as its basic fractional unit instead of 1/240th (which is why I emphasised the point that 1p (new pence) was just a new fractional denomination for an existing currency). Pre-decimal units are still denominable in the same pound sterling (6d is 2.5p, for example) but the coins that represent them have just been demonetised (no longer legal tender).
Imagine if in 2018 we decided to un-decimalise the UK; the Royal Mint might just start minting coins worth 1/240th of the pound sterling, instead of the now-defunct 1p coins worth 1/100th of the very same pound sterling. But some pound sterling coins denominated in decimal fractional units might continue to circulate as the sixpence did after 1971 because they're still coins from the same currency; shops might continue accepting 50p coins as 10 shillings.
Again it does depend on personal definitions to some extent at least, but if there's one thing that makes a "new currency", I'd say it has to be change to the base unit (£1 became 2 AUD rather than 1, for example), and not just change in fractional units or operative systems used. Name is usually the most obvious indicator (e.g. the South African pound to the South African rand) but there have been times when two markedly different currencies of the same country have shared a name (like in Hungary, currencies named forint were used three times; once in the middle ages, once in the 19th century, and since 1946; the latter two were decimalised, but it's hard to argue they were the same as each other or the first).
PS: If anyone wants to know the French franc's official conversion rate to the Euro it's 6.55957 FRF to 1 EUR. I've had stamps from as far back as the 1960s used on incoming packages, and a few times I even had old franc stamps from 1948 and 1956 too.
CassTaylor: why are you emphasizing that old pounds circulated even after decimalization? In my lifetime the currency of my country changed three times, and every time there was a transitional period when both currencies were legal tender. It is hard to imagine how the currency of a country could be changed overnight.
Quote: "numinis"CassTaylor: why are you emphasizing that old pounds circulated even after decimalization? In my lifetime the currency of my country changed three times, and every time there was a transitional period when both currencies were legal tender. It is hard to imagine how the currency of a country could be changed overnight.
I emphasised that some old coins denominated in multiples of d circulated after 1971 to show that they are coins issued in the same currency as the new ones denominated in multiples of p.
The pound sterling didn't decimalise overnight either; the first coins denominated in the new p unit came out in 1968- there was indeed a period when (for example) both the 10 new pence and 2 shillings (24 old pence) coins, both worth the same (1/10th of a pound), were both legal tender & circulated together, from 1968 until 1992 (when the 10p coin was shrunk).
