I'm not sure about the India example referenced but British Postal Orders are government issued paper currency, often carrying the monarch's portrait, so I believe they should be included in the main catalogue, although possibly within their own 'currency' section to separate from the bank notes.
Just because you can't see it ... doesn't mean it isn't there - Anon.
Postal orders are issues by a local post office and have a validity of six months from the date of issue
They can be cashed only by the name mentioned in payee and only at the post office mentioned.
In India they are mainly used to pay fees for any government application. Like for RTI or as application fees for any job .
As far as I know they should be treated as exo numia not paper money.
Postal Orders are regularly treated under "bank notes". The international AGM of the Postal Order Society has always met at the IBNS (International Bank Note Society). Many of the banknote dealers at the IBNS meetings also deal in postal orders. Most postal order collectors are also banknote collectors, because they are a means of transmitting money through the post. For the same reason as many banknote collectors also collect historical bank cheques.
It's also worth noting that because postal orders overlap several aspects, the FIP also declares in its regulations that "Money orders / postal orders / postal notes can be exhibited as either postal stationery or revenues", so postal orders come up in several sectors.
Quote: "JohnG"Postal Orders are regularly treated under "bank notes". The international AGM of the Postal Order Society has always met at the IBNS (International Bank Note Society). Many of the banknote dealers at the IBNS meetings also deal in postal orders. Most postal order collectors are also banknote collectors, because they are a means of transmitting money through the post. For the same reason as many banknote collectors also collect historical bank cheques.
Postal orders have also been declared legal tender as currency - Orange Free State, South African Republic, & the U.K..
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Postal orders have also been declared legal tender as currency - Orange Free State, South African Republic, & the U.K..
This is very much the exception, not the rule. However, if we include only those that have circulated as money and place the rest somewhere else, we don't provide much of a service to those who collect postal orders. Surely a separate section akin to tokens is the best route?
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Postal orders have also been declared legal tender as currency - Orange Free State, South African Republic, & the U.K..
This is very much the exception, not the rule. However, if we include only those that have circulated as money and place the rest somewhere else, we don't provide much of a service to those who collect postal orders. Surely a separate section akin to tokens is the best route?
I support a separate Postal Orders section.
In relation to finding out how to identify the currency postal orders, I have no idea, as I have seen quite a few cashed Orange Free State 1 Shilling & 5 Shillings Postal Notes turn up here in New Zealand.
Pick Specialised catalogue lists a few postal orders.
Not that I would claim Ebay as the ultimate authority on classifications of topics, it's interesting to see that Ebay has the following chain of related catagories: "Coins > Banknotes > British > Postal Orders". A similar hierarchy is in the US ebay categorisations too.
I don't think we should add "Postal orders" now to the catalog ... I personally won't add them now because I personally think, they are closer to bank check than to banknotes.
Also, Xavier decided for example not to introduce "Stamp notes" right now. He wrote : "Even if they were used as currency, these are not banknotes. Especially since we are just starting with banknotes, I would prefer not listing them on Numista."
I don't know, what is his opinion about "Postal orders" but to me, this is NOT a priority as we are just starting with banknotes.
Canada used a lot at the beginning but I'm not going to add them until Xavier says it is OK.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Canada had its own Postal Notes from 1898 until 1949, when they were withdrawn.
British Postal Orders have been issued in Canada, most notably at B.F.P.O. 14 in Suffield, Alberta.
Aidan.
Yes I know but I'm not considering these Postal orders as Banknotes for the moment.
In my opinion it is just way too soon to add them to the catalog. As I sad before, they are closer to bank checks than to banknotes.
Would be nice to have the opinion of Xavier on this topic.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Galor,
Cheques don't have monarchs' portraits or national emblems on them.
I have uploaded photos of postal orders under Brunei, England, Guernsey, India, Ireland, Lesotho, New Zealand, South Africa, & Swaziland so far.
Aidan.
But to me, you should also not write anything on a banknote in order to use them (Name, Date...)
They aren't cheques, they aren't banknotes, they're postal orders. Somewhere inbetween the two (perhaps) but a distinct thing that belongs in a distinct section. Travellers cheques will probably start appearing at some stage too (if they haven't already) and these will also warrant a separate section.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Quote: "ceh2019"They aren't cheques, they aren't banknotes, they're postal orders. Somewhere inbetween the two (perhaps) but a distinct thing that belongs in a distinct section. Travellers cheques will probably start appearing at some stage too (if they haven't already) and these will also warrant a separate section.
I agree with you ! These notes will require an independent section later on and I truly thing we should focus an 'real' banknotes in a first time before having to rearrange the whole catalog in a couple of month again because they are postal orders, traveler checks, stamp banknotes and so on.
The only travellers' cheques that warrant listing are the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe's ones that was released during 2003 as the forerunners of the Bearer Cheques.
Iran has the Iran Cheques denominated at 1 Million Rials & higher.
Yes, it's clear that the Reserve Bank cheques from Zimbabwe and the Central Bank "Iran Cheques" should be treated as normal banknotes. I'm not sure about the status of the other Iranian cheques that are listed here: http://banknote.ws/COLLECTION/countries/ASI/IRN/IRN-CHQ.htm though.
Former Numista referee for banknotes from Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Saint Helena.
Imagine adding ALL "postal orders" ...
In France we could still use them until 2018 for any value lower than 1.500€ : (CR)
In the UK we can also find a lot of them - The 2003 serie has 13 different notes from 50p to 20£ : (CR)
And I think a lot of countries if not nearly all used them because they where convenient at that time for people... but I'm (for the moment) against introducing them into the Numista catalog.
That French Cash Mandat is a money order, not a postal order.
The French version of the postal order / postal note was the Bon de Poste - also inscribed on Canadian postal notes like on this one from Ontario in my collection;
Quote: "BCNumismatics"That French Cash Mandat is a money order, not a postal order.
The French version of the postal order / postal note was the Bon de Poste
Aidan.
You're right, I did a mistake on that one. But this shows that at some point members could get confused about where the limit in the banknote catalog.
Hello,
Postal orders are definitely an interesting area of numismatics. However they are not banknotes. The banknote catalogue of Numista is very new: let's try to focus on banknotes and keep the catalogue clean, before trying to reuse it for other types of collectibles. For the moment, I recommend not adding postal orders.
Quote: "Xavier"Hello,
Postal orders are definitely an interesting area of numismatics. However they are not banknotes. The banknote catalogue of Numista is very new: let's try to focus on banknotes and keep the catalogue clean, before trying to reuse it for other types of collectibles. For the moment, I recommend not adding postal orders.
Xavier, postal orders are sometimes printed by the same printers that print banknotes.
Postal orders (Bons de Poste in French) are a close cousin of banknotes.
The Orange Free State's Postal Notes & the South African Republic's Postal Orders are listed in the Pick Specialised catalogue.
There are catalogues for British Postal Orders (by Michael Brill) & New Zealand Postal Notes & Postal Orders (by Jack Harwood).
These reasons alone are why a separate postal orders section is definitely needed.
There are collectors in other countries, especially Australia & the U.K., in addition to me here in New Zealand, who want to contribute postal order listings & photos, so that we can educate the numismatic community.
Quote: "Xavier"Hello,
Postal orders are definitely an interesting area of numismatics. However they are not banknotes. The banknote catalogue of Numista is very new: let's try to focus on banknotes and keep the catalogue clean, before trying to reuse it for other types of collectibles. For the moment, I recommend not adding postal orders.
I agree with Xavier . . and I might add I am glad I only collect coins as this whole Banknote/Postal Order thing looks like a minefield.
Cheers Mike
Master Referee - See my profile for what I collect.
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Xavier, postal orders are sometimes printed by the same printers that print banknotes.
Postal orders (Bons de Poste in French) are a close cousin of banknotes.
The Orange Free State's Postal Notes & the South African Republic's Postal Orders are listed in the Pick Specialised catalogue.
There are catalogues for British Postal Orders (by Michael Brill) & New Zealand Postal Notes & Postal Orders (by Jack Harwood).
These reasons alone are why a separate postal orders section is definitely needed.
There are collectors in other countries, especially Australia & the U.K., in addition to me here in New Zealand, who want to contribute postal order listings & photos, so that we can educate the numismatic community.
Aidan.
Thanks Xavier for your answer !
I personally think that Xavier answered to any questions we had !
If they "are a close cousin of banknotes", than they are NOT banknotes.
All items listed in the "Specialized Catalog" of the Standard Catalog of World Paper Money are not banknotes and it starts to bother me that so many people take this book as an absolute truth and as a reference without questioning it from time to time... It's not because the item appears in the book, that it has the obligation to be copied into the Numista catalog.
"There are catalogues for British Postal Orders & New Zealand Postal Notes & Postal Orders" this is very nice but they are probably also catalogs for stamp notes, ... as Xavier sad, it is an interesting area of numismatics but as we only started with banknotes, the catalog should be improved and developed only for banknotes in order to keep and maintain a clear catalog.
"These reasons alone are why a separate postal orders section is definitely needed." In your opinion it is definitely needed but to me, they don't belong on Numista. I'm sorry but if we start adding all the "close cousin of banknotes" (as you said), the catalog is going to be a real mess!
"There are collectors in other countries" yes you are right, but there are collectors of everything around the world too. The only way to keep a focused and easy to understand catalog is that we sometimes need to say no to some elements...
"So that we can educate the numismatic community", the action you propose is praiseworthy and admirable but I thing you will need to do it through the forum for the moment. Once the catalog contains most of the banknotes, then maybe we can talk about adding more elements. For the moment it is just way too soon.
The answer of Xavier is clear, no postal orders now, it means later on (probably this year depending of the devellopement of the Banknote catalogue) we can reopen the debate and thinks about the best way to introduce them. I know that there is discution to clarify the current situation on tokens and Exonumia because the current way we orgonise it doesn't fitt very well.
Please be patient, again it's not a "no" it's a "no for now".
Always look on the bright side of life!
Topic moved to "Numista banknote catalogue"(Xavier, 5 May 2020, 23:16)
Quote: "BCNumismatics"Xavier,
Please create separate sections for 'Postal Orders' & for 'Community & Complementary Currency Notes'.
I would be more than happy to advise you regarding which countries have had postal orders, & how we should format the information fields for them.
I know JohnG would also like to contribute - along with other members of the Postal Order Society.
Aidan.
Hello,
I'm definitely leaving this debate ... I thought this topic was closed and I find your attitude of continuing adding postal orders when you had been asked not to do so inappropriate and quite disrespectful ... I'll leave it up to Xavier and master referees to decide between removing them from the catalog -and- creating a new section for them.
Galor,
It is unfair to suggest removing postal order listings from Numista.
I think it is high time they were not only listed - but in a separate Postal Orders section though.
I have always been a very strong believer in creating a numismatic educational resource to make our fellow collectors aware that postal order collecting is a legitimate branch of numismatics.
Some countries had neither banknotes nor coins - but did have postal orders, however.
Aidan.
Status changed to Accepted(Sulfur, 27 May 2020, 02:52)
I moved all Postal Orders I could find to the Tokens section (those from the United Kingdom are currently pending). If anyone finds any more, please request to move them to the Tokens section, having the country of issue in the title.
While I agree these are not banknotes, I can see why one would like to include them in the catalogue. I think, if anything, the Tokens section is the best place for them. We would need new currencies for them (for example: United Kingdom - Postal Orders), so for now, they are good without currencies.
But before I request the currencies to be added, I would like to hear others' opinions on them being in the Tokens section. In that section, they would be out of the way, but would also still exist within the catalogue.
We do not have a Postal Order section. If you want them to be listed somewhere on Numista, you are going to have to settle for the Tokens sections (if it can be agreed on that we can keep them there, at least).
The other option would be Exonumia, but I feel Tokens is the better section for these. Of course, others' opinions are always appreciated.
Xavier needs to create separate sections titled 'Postal Orders' for postal orders, & 'Community & Complementary Currency Notes' for those notes that are very local issues, such as the 1970's Italian emergency notes.
Quote: "Xavier"Hello,
Postal orders are definitely an interesting area of numismatics. However they are not banknotes. The banknote catalogue of Numista is very new: let's try to focus on banknotes and keep the catalogue clean, before trying to reuse it for other types of collectibles. For the moment, I recommend not adding postal orders.
Xavier, please create a separate 'Postal Orders' section, so that they avoid being transferred to 'Tokens' where they do not belong.
I should admit that I was not in favor of the postal order in the catalog but the current way they are organized can’t be satisfactory for anyone as the token section is becoming a real mess. Can someone draw a line here?
Quote: "Sulfur"I made a thread about adding the necessary currencies for postal orders, which has pending for a few months now:
https://en.numista.com/forum/topic97249.html
There is not much we can do until that request is dealt with...
Postal Orders should be in a separate section, NOT put under 'Tokens'.
I hope to be able to get fellow postal order collectors involved in contributing photos of postal orders from their collections to such a section.
People were asking for a banknote category for years. When it finally happened, instead on focusing on improving it, some ask for another category ... postal orders. Can you have some patience? Is the banknote catalog so perfect that we have nothing else to do? Why not finding a way to categorize the Russian listings or the Chinese or others? There are other things that we need to prioritize, and postal orders are not one of them. List the ones that circulated as banknotes and that's it. The best thing will be to vote on this and the debate will be over.
Quote: "allexis"People were asking for a banknote category for years. When it finally happened, instead on focusing on improving it, some ask for another category ... postal orders. Can you have some patience? Is the banknote catalog so perfect that we have nothing else to do? Why not finding a way to categorize the Russian listings or the Chinese or others? There are other things that we need to prioritize, and postal orders are not one of them. List the ones that circulated as banknotes and that's it. The best thing will be to vote on this and the debate will be over.
The collecting & study of postal orders are actually a branch of notaphily.
Postal orders are worthy of listing & cataloguing as much as banknotes & coins are.
Your answer doesn't answer any of my questions. You want a postal orders category and you want it now, it doesn't matter what the majority is telling you.
Status changed to Rejected(stratocaster, 2 Ocak 2021, 22:54)
Quote: "allexis"Your answer doesn't answer any of my questions. You want a postal orders category and you want it now, it doesn't matter what the majority is telling you.
Isn't this catalogue supposed to be a collaborative project?
I am also a believer in using this project to help create an educational resource as well.
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