It is really apparent that the tokens section is getting out of hand (I know many older members will remember that this discussion has been discussed when we had 1/4 as many tokens as there are now and nothing was done) I propose that we take action now! I have set up this thread so we can discuss a set of formal rules about what we do and do not allow to go into the tokens section.
If we do this then we can put a marker stick in the ground, anything submitted after the rules are set will be declined if they do not meet the guidelines for being in the token section, then we can start the mammoth task of going through the 14,000 items already in the tokens section to clean out the detritus.
Do we really want plastic euro play money to be in the tokens section? by the same logic I could go down to the toy shop, buy a plastic police badge and enter it into the catalogue as a medal. Then there is this "token" https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces52813.html
I will collate the responses in the top post of the thread, so give your ideas
Fristly - one idea for you personally: list of "rules" - make it clearly structured and divide it into two parts - one being thing we can all agree on, and second part will be things that are not agreed on yet.
Firstly some administration rules:
No token will be admited without pictures. As a consequence, no picture will be admited without Description, lettering and shape. Furthermore, if member owns the token, he will be able to describe also edge and make some measurements.
Few more allowed categories - bullion - I would like to point to Hamletmachine, who have been managing that section for past few weeks already (and he already made it pretty good!) - he can give out explanation of rules for that section.
Euro fantasy tokens - (already nicely managed by Pajaskot) - I can give out explanation myself here:
Name field examples: 1 (Andorra Euro Fantasy Token) / 2 Europ (Andorra Euro Fantasy Token) will always show what is written on the coin - europ/xeros/nothing/etc while value field will have the same for "Euro" issues but if they are "Cent" issues, Cent will be written there. That is set this way because of searchability by key words: "cent/euro/xeros/etc."
Transport tokens - already established naming rules but not yet enforced
1 - what it is - Metro token/Tram token/etc.
2 - Name of the city (if applicable)
3 - Additional info
Examples: Metro token - Kiev - Station " Arsenalnaya" https://en.numista.com/catalogue/tokens-119.html#devise2837
Same pattern should be applicable to Telephone tokens.
Quote: "Jarcek"Few more allowed categories - bullion - I would like to point to Hamletmachine, who have been managing that section for past few weeks already (and he already made it pretty good!) - he can give out explanation of rules for that section.
Euro fantasy tokens - (already nicely managed by Pajaskot) - I can give out explanation myself here:
Name field examples: 1 (Andorra Euro Fantasy Token) / 2 Europ (Andorra Euro Fantasy Token) will always show what is written on the coin - europ/xeros/nothing/etc while value field will have the same for "Euro" issues but if they are "Cent" issues, Cent will be written there. That is set this way because of searchability by key words: "cent/euro/xeros/etc."
Transport tokens - already established naming rules but not yet enforced
1 - what it is - Metro token/Tram token/etc.
2 - Name of the city (if applicable)
3 - Additional info
Examples: Metro token - Kiev - Station " Arsenalnaya" https://en.numista.com/catalogue/tokens-119.html#devise2837
Same pattern should be applicable to Telephone tokens.
I set up this thread to determine what we actually allow in the tokens section, not the rules on how to enter the tokens...that is a discussion for another thread.
Secondly, I was simply going to put people's ideas up the top of the thread whether they are agreed on or not and then we can have a vote (so some tokens will obviously be in both allowed and not allowed until we can vote on it)
Aim higher, these rules must be set while on the move for everything, or we will never get it done.
Anyway - "Fantasy" coinage of unrecognized/disputed territories should be there until designated otherwise. (For example if country list gets reworked)
I would disagree with tourist tokens and fantasy coins. Numismatics is the study of money and things that are used as money.
Transport, telephone, milk tokens, etc. qualify because they are used to pay for things....Tourist tokens are just shiny bits of metal with no monetary value that someone takes home as a memento of their trips, similarly fantasy coins have no monetary value, they're just an item to show what coins could look like for that area.
We really need to be brutal otherwise we will end up not eliminating anything and end up back where we started.
So, in that vein, medals, medalettes, coronation medals should also be eliminated as they also have no monetary value or were used in exchange for goods and services. But I'll put your suggestions in both categories with stars to mark that they are not agreed on yet.
The whole idea of this is to reduce what we allow, if we split the section into tokens and exonumia then we have really not addressed the problem, we have just moved it.
This site is called Numista, it is a study of numismatic material, not a study of medals, shiny bits of crap I got on holiday and look, I minted my own token, I demand it goes in this site. The attitude of "this is round and made of metal, it needs to go on this site" is the reason we now have 14,000 items in the tokens section and it is impossible to navigate.
The study of medals is a completely different area from Numismatics, it's called Phaleristics. Just because you can collect both coins and medals, it does not mean that they need to be included in the same site.
A difficult and arduous job. I agree with neilithic and don't think any ephemera that carry no monetary value should be allowed onto the website, otherwise it just becomes crowded with too much detritus.
'Transport, telephone, milk tokens, etc. qualify because they are used to pay for things....Tourist tokens are just shiny bits of metal with no monetary value'
'..... is a study of numismatic material, not a study of medals, shiny bits of crap I got on holiday'
I disagree with the removal of tourist tokens, especially those issued by an official mint. Clearly these are numismatic pieces that are issued with mint sets or associated with non-circulating coins. Same goes for medallions, which also have their own catalogs.
However, I support the deletion of play tokens.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
I consider myself an inclusionist, and think that most coin-like objects could be included as long as they are well-described and we have the proper categories to put them in.
I think bullion rounds should stay, but I'm not sure about bars, although the difference between a 1 oz round and a 1 oz bar is cosmetic. Plastic toy coins and markers, and those things you put in the shopping cart instead of a coin, should go.
This is the problem, everyone complains that the tokens section is too big, but nobody wants to see the items that they collect removed, the result....nothing gets removed, the tokens section keeps growing and everyone keeps complaining.
I think we need to lay down the law, the tokens section should be just that....tokens. A fantasy coin is not a token, a medal is not a token, a medalette is not a token, a bullion piece is not a token, and although it says it in the title, a tourist token is not a token, it's a souvenir.
Medalettes may have their own catalogues, but that does not mean they should be included in a numismatic site. I'm sure that there are catalogues for people who collect buttons and bottle caps, does that mean we start listing them on the site "Look, they have their own catalogue, they must be included"
I think the rule of thumb should be this "Can this, or was this ever, able to be exchanged for goods and services?" If the answer is no, it doesn't make it into the catalogue.
Another question is who has the rights to delete coins? Because after the rules have been finalised, if it's just a matter of going through and marking which are to be deleted and then someone approves it, I would be more than happy to start working through our current selection to prune them out.
Maybe now it is becoming clear why I would like to introduce set of complex rules for additions and naming the sections. To walk this path from the smallest steps. Because there will be always so many opinions, and as you said, nobody would like to see his "objects" go. We need cleanup, not massive deletion. Or we can simply divide tokens into some separate categories - this would also needed Xavier to work on.
Maybe we should initiate voting on those most hated sections - I believe these would be Shopping carts, Bars, Play tokens ?
PS: Administration team can delete coin if nobody has it in his/her collection. Only Xavier can do for those which people marked as ones they own.
The rule does not need to be complex, I just stated what I would prefer in one sentence in my post above. The cleanup can come later, it's sorting out now what we want listed that we should be concentrating on.
The cleanup is what I do for a living. Our organisation had some of their data on paper, some on microfiche, some on microfilm, some on tape, some digitised, some on aperture cards. in 2001 we decided that everything coming in from now on was to be digitised, my job is going through, sorting out the information that is on the other sources and digitising it. It's the best way because then you have a fixed idea of what you have left to complete to get the job finished and the job is not constantly being added to by new stuff coming in.
We need to do this now, put the stick into the ground, decide what we accept into the catalogue, then we can start working backwards on the items already in the catalogue.
Deleted a long post stating generally nothing, but I came to this:
1 - Tokens are in a mess - it is our trash bin.
2 - We cannot really agree what to delete or not.
3 - We want to cleanup the section.
4 - We will set up new rules for new additions + rules for sorting and naming sections and individual tokens.
5 - But mess is still staying - why?
6 - Because we get rid of something we need in the first place!We are creating a showcase of tokens - what that means - that we miss TRASH BIN in our backyard we had in the first place.
Lets create our trash bin - it can be called exonumia or something like that. Then we can move the ones we hate and on which we can agree on there.
This will have several consequences:
We will cleanup the tokens
Nobody gets irked by deletion (we have already been there)
Things sorted in trash bin can be deleted anytime when word arrives from above, that they should be deleted.
Such sorted trash bin can also be used for bringing them up, if word arrives that there will be Bullion section/etc..
Quote: "neilithic"I think the rule of thumb should be this "Can this, or was this ever, able to be exchanged for goods and services?" If the answer is no, it doesn't make it into the catalogue.
Even though I have a few that don't fit with this, I agree.
But a couple of points/questions for consideration.
Souvenir tokens, bought in tourist shops, unlimited mintage, I agreee, have no place in the catalogue.
But what about "coins" from places like The London Mint Office (I guess the UK version of The Franklin Mint?). Mostly base metal, often plated, and whilst of no monetary value, have limited mintage. Are these tokens, coins, medals, medalettes, ... ? And do they have any place here?
And finally, elongated (pressed/squashed/smooshed) pennies, I consider these no different from souvenir/tourist tokens, but I'm sure others would disagree.
This wikipedia page has a good definition for token, that fits very well with Neil's definition:
QuotePrivately issued piece that has redeemable value for goods or services, but is not an official government coin. An example would be subway tokens.
http://www.facebook.com/NumismaticsUK
I'm not an expert in any kind of coins, but I reckon I'm good at research and will do my best to help. Feel free to tell me my identifications/valuations/gradings are wrong. It's the only way I'll learn.
Please don't delete before we tried to clean up the tokens section.
To devide tokens into some other categories would help more than deleting things, other Numista-members had work with.
For example:
I don't collect tokens, but i collect "tourist-tokens" and elongated coins (smashed pennies).
The tokens and Jetons i have but don't collect are in my swap list and two of them found interest of an other member who wants to have them (Shell tokens).
If we erase a huge part of the tokens section, we will lose a part of Numista.
Everybody who thinks, that the tokens section is a mess, should help to clean it up by editing these tokens he/she knows about, and just ignore the other tokens.
I think we should have in addition to the "tokens" section a "Souveniers" section for the Monaye de Paris rounds (which are very beautyful) and other "minted" souveniers.
We just have to find the right headlines and must create the fitting categories to solve the tokens problems.
I would love to see elongated coins added into Numista, so i could have my whole "metal-collection" orgenized at one place, but i think this is a too big "world" with many thousands of items (i have more than 1.000 different and i have a very small collection).
For me a Numismatic item is not only metal pieces wich are or were used to pay or get something.
Please don't listen only to the loudest voice.
Once more it is showed, we need a "i don't like this suggestion" button for threads like this here.
ps
my English is not the best.
I hope everybody understands what i'm trying to say
Once more this discussion. May I suggest that you hold hard on it until we get to an agreement, rather than seeing the disappear at the bottom of the list as many before. And try not to fight. It costed a lot 2 years ago !
One suggestion: we all agree on the so called monetary tokens (in fact the only ones that Xavier planned to include at the beginning). The token supported by Neilithic, those used to pay something.
So one first step may be to create a "monetary tokens" section, which would include the notgelds, the local moneys (regional coinage, ...), and all the tokens that one can show that they were used to pay something, that you put in a machine that gives you something, that washes your car or let you in for a movie, etc.
Once that is done, the "trash bag" has diminished a bit.
The rest will become "exonumias". And someone will have to decide what to do with it.
Quand l'Histoire et la Géographie se croisent sur nos pièces de monnaie ...
For any particular token, if Numista is its foremost online source for documentation, it should not be deleted. If the token is better documented elsewhere, it need not stay here.
When I was new here, I added every token I owned. Now I only add them if I have one to swap.
I am planning a longer post, but I think VERIFYABILITY is a key factor. We can't have "this random metal piece with an A on that I have at home" in the catalgoue, but if a token/medal/whathaveyou is explicitly stated as minted here and here, sold or given away there and there, and/or used for this and this, I think it could stay. Such information can be added in the comment field, and I'd love to see sources in that field too (web pages, books etc.).
Verifyability should clear out the most obvious trash, some other might have to go too, but if good sources are found later they can be added again.
Of course, I would not consider Notgelds as part of tokens as they have a real monetary use, like for example "barbarian" (in the sense of unauthorized) issues in the Roman Empire. They all should be listed with coins in the right country listing, and sometimes specifically separate listing should be created (German Notgelds deserve a separate listing), but that's another subject.
In a French POV, I would include Tourist Tokens in the authorized listings. There is a real market for this, I pick them myself when I visit an interesting place. Of course I would avoid to collect non-official tokens (mainly Monnaie de Paris tokens for me, but this is too much personal), and they're named as Médaille officielle, or Official Medal. Even we name it tokens, their official name deserves the status of a real numismatic object. Even if their use is sometimes derivated from the principal purpose (touristic initially, commemorative sometimes).
I think the so-called Merchant tokens are, for example, Consommer tokens. These have a similar use and may be allowed. Some transport tokens too. However when their use can be moved to a Notgeld use, their exact listing may be on debate later.
This is valid also for medals in the noble version, like said Steve27. I also own an International Exposition medal, made to commemorate in French the 1st exposition in London. All these kinds of commemorative medals are deserving a listing. And in some minds, unlike neilithic said, the term Numismatics include such medals, and I'm in the 1sts to admit this.
However these shitty fantasy tokens for territories which have no other official coinage than the national coinage don't deserve a listing, they only deserve recycling. I know there are collectors of these "pieces of shit" in the French forum, but these should not be listed for me.
Even the micronations would be in debate as I won't recognize most of them, as they're uncirculating. The only micronation excption I know is Lundy as there was an issue leading to an official statement, as Lundy coins from 1929 were considered unauthorized coinage. Their use is quite similar with the "barbarian coinage" listed before. Some others are tourist tokens for me, when there is a real territory assigned to the "coin-token", like Seborga, and should be listed as well. But the micronation issue may have similar consequences as some fantasy tokens. In another way there are some issues for some disputed territories to be kept as they're in an intermediate status between the coin and the token.
And of course any object not intended to commemorate anythink, like religious medals to be add to a jewel should be removed, even someones have an interesting historical background. Car wash tokens should be removed too, as they're bought only to replace coins when you don't have, and have no more use than launching a car cleaning machine ; and not sure if phone tokens would deserve it too. And, the best, plastic tokens (play tokens, caddie tokens...), bullion bars (which have no monetary aspect) and blank tokens.
When you have an issue with the term "tokens", so some objects would deserve a separate listing like *Medals* in the same model as *Tokens*
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I would recommend looking at this issues two ways, first by country and second by date. What is correct for one country may not be correct for another. Why, because the research documentation available will vary greatly by country. The other issue date, refers the the exponential growth in the use and production of tokens over the last century. Tokens used to be expensive to make, now they're cheap, so anyone can have one produced for just about anything. For the US, I would recommend the following breakdown:
1) Early American Tokens (1694-1832) (Standard Cat of US Tokens 1700-1900)
2) Hard Times Tokens (1833-1844) (Standard Cat of US Tokens 1700-1900)
3) US Merchant Tokens (1845-1860) (Standard Cat of US Tokens 1700-1900)
4) Civil War Store Cards (1861-1865) (Standard Cat of US Tokens 1700-1900)
5) Patriotic Civil War Tokens (1861-1865) (Standard Cat of US Tokens 1700-1900)
6) US Trade Tokens (1866-1889) (Standard Cat of US Tokens 1700-1900)
7) Tokens of the Gay Nineties (1890-1900) (Standard Cat of US Tokens 1700-1900)
8) So-Called Dollars (So-Called Dollars 2nd edition)
9) Encased Coins (http://www.encasedcollectorsinternational.org/)
10) Transportation Tokens (Atwood-Coffee Catalogue of United States and Canadian Transportation Tokens)
11) Sales Tax Tokens (U.S. State issued sales tax tokens)
12) Parking Tokens (Feisel's Catalogue of Parking Tokens of the World)
13) Wooden Money
14) Medals
15) Other
My personal opinion will probably differ from many others but this is it.
As tokens are not classes as coins, therefore are not numismatic items, I would remove all tokens from Numista.
A separate site, using the Numista name could be created where they are listed, thus preserving the tokens for those who do collect them
too difficult to find an optimal decision and satisfy 50.000 members.
Almost all dogmas are correct, and, as we all see, all of them have contr- versions.
There are some types of tokens which are not associate with goods or services, but for years people call them TOKENS.
SO-called " lucky tokens" , Mintset tokens, which are called " tokens" even by Gov. Mints ! advertiseent tokens, which are also tokens ( why not?) , and tourist tokens.
If we will so brutal, that go together in the end of 19th century or at least befor 1930s, when tokens were only the stuff which would change for real money, - then YES, we will be correct. And its very easy - to delete everything but not tokens with monetary value.
But stuff, which you change for 2 euro coin and put in shopping cart , is also token.
and if you will eat 2 sandwiches in Tbilisi "Wendy`s" canteen, you will receive free token for gaming zone. It is also token. where is the difference between this token, and tyoken you put in shop cart? no difference!
And finally, soe tokens, which some of our members dont call " tokens" have inscription " TOKEN" on them... It will very difficult to explain to someone, mostly beginners....
Well, these debates are about nothing.
I vote for:
lets recall all of this chaos into " EXONUMIA" , and create new " Tokens" ( someone already wrote )
For people, who collect everything - no problem where his stuff will be listed . But for people who collect only tokens exchangable into goods/ services , will have more or less perfect catalog. Everything, whith which 95% of us have same opinion ( fantasy coins, Amazonia, Medals, Medaletes etc) will stay in EXONUMIA. Exonumia will have its own admin, and tokens will have its own admins.
Notgelds must be listed separately - agree with Chop. and french m. necess. as well.
Im very new in tokens, I collect tokens for fun , and I will follow Numista rules, how brutal they might be. If coin/ token does not allowed it doesnot mean that you willnot collect it :)
Before anything else I would like to say that I am agains deleting anything.
I agree with some points that Neihlitic made. Ok, maybe certain things that are currently in the token section don't qualify to be called tokens. Maybe they don't even have any numismatic value, but people that are part of Numista collect them with passion. Let us make room for each other and stay together. Lets swallow our pride and try to understand each other, and not turn this into a discussion who is right and who is wrong.
In my opinion the existing mess in the token section is not caused by the number of tokens, but because of the lack of structure and organisation.
Example... I don't collect, nor care about tokens from grocery cards. Facts that they have no numismatic value, that they are made of worthless plastic, or that they are ugly is not what bothers me about them. What bothers me is the fact that they are mixed together with some amazing pieces of history. Solution is not in deleting them, but in organizing them and putting them in where they belong and they belong in a sub-cathegory of "Grocery card tokens"
Maybe the best idea that I heard here is to move everything in something called "trash" and than establish categories and sub-categories and remove things from trash to the exact place where they should go. Only things that are 100% done properly should be moved from trash to the new category. (that would include photos, lettering, value...) That way we would have well organized token section and the rest would be in the trash (the way it is now) but nothing would be lost, no ones work would be deleted and no one's feelings would be hurt.
Quote: "PajaSkot"I read all of the comments :)
Before anything else I would like to say that I am agains deleting anything.
I agree with some points that Neihlitic made. Ok, maybe certain things that are currently in the token section don't qualify to be called tokens. Maybe they don't even have any numismatic value, but people that are part of Numista collect them with passion. Let us make room for each other and stay together. Lets swallow our pride and try to understand each other, and not turn this into a discussion who is right and who is wrong.
In my opinion the existing mess in the token section is not caused by the number of tokens, but because of the lack of structure and organisation.
Example... I don't collect, nor care about tokens from grocery cards. Facts that they have no numismatic value, that they are made of worthless plastic, or that they are ugly is not what bothers me about them. What bothers me is the fact that they are mixed together with some amazing pieces of history. Solution is not in deleting them, but in organizing them and putting them in where they belong and they belong in a sub-cathegory of "Grocery card tokens"
Maybe the best idea that I heard here is to move everything in something called "trash" and than establish categories and sub-categories and remove things from trash to the exact place where they should go. Only things that are 100% done properly should be moved from trash to the new category. (that would include photos, lettering, value...) That way we would have well organized token section and the rest would be in the trash (the way it is now) but nothing would be lost, no ones work would be deleted and no one's feelings would be hurt.
Thank you all for reading.
Solution is not in deleting them, but in organizing them and putting them in where they belong - AGREE!!!
We could start some voting system - to concetrate on one issues after another with questions like - Do notgeld deserve separate listings instead of being separated between tokens and Germany. Simple Yes/No to get some opinions out of the people. These are things we can do - I can create country in two minutes, and if enough people helps me, in one hour, they could be moved all.
Quote: "Dato Mikeladze"and french m. necess. as well.
They already are, within French cities.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "PajaSkot"Before anything else I would like to say that I am agains deleting anything.
Maybe they don't even have any numismatic value, but people that are part of Numista collect them with passion.
This statement pretty much sums up why the tokens section is so big. I'm part of Numista and I collect postcards with a passion. Does that mean that we should list them in the site as well? No, of course not, because they are not numismatic material. It is the same with medals, medalettes, tourist tokens. We all need to let go and realise that this is a numismatic site, not a site for philately, notaphily, phaleristicy, deltiology or anything else.
(in case you're wondering, that means stamp collecting, banknote collecting, medal collecting and postcard collecting respectively)
I am in favour of dividing the tokens section into tokens and exonumia, as long as the exonumia section is sealed and we do not add anything more into it until it can be sorted and decided whether it belongs in the catalogue or not.
Quote: "Jarcek"But not all of them - Private notgeld are still rotting in the tokens, German as well as French.
I already spotted that issue, but i.e. some ones were considered as Consommer tokens or Transport tokens.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Well, of course there wont be any stamps, or banknotes or something like that, but I believe tourist tokens and bullions just will keep falling into that category anyway.
Just take a good look at that comment for a minute "Maybe they don't even have any numismatic value"
Why would a numismatic site list things with no numismatic value?
It's like a banknote site listing postage stamps, or a postage stamp site listing bottle caps. How can we be taken seriously as a numismatic site if we keep allowing non numismatic material? We may as well just call ourselves "Colnect v2.0" and finish the job.
There is a notable exception of alternative coinage which may be surprising: encapsulated stamps.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Quote: "neilithic"This is the problem, everyone complains that the tokens section is too big, but nobody wants to see the items that they collect removed, the result....nothing gets removed, the tokens section keeps growing and everyone keeps complaining.
I think we need to lay down the law, the tokens section should be just that....tokens. A fantasy coin is not a token, a medal is not a token, a medalette is not a token, a bullion piece is not a token, and although it says it in the title, a tourist token is not a token, it's a souvenir.
Medalettes may have their own catalogues, but that does not mean they should be included in a numismatic site. I'm sure that there are catalogues for people who collect buttons and bottle caps, does that mean we start listing them on the site "Look, they have their own catalogue, they must be included"
I think the rule of thumb should be this "Can this, or was this ever, able to be exchanged for goods and services?" If the answer is no, it doesn't make it into the catalogue.
I think you just argued for bullion to be allowed.
Anyway, I agree with hamletmachine. Many rounds have numismatic value.
No. Round type capsules containing the stamp, or some stamped round cardboards.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
Well as I see it, this thread has thrown up three options
Status quo - keep all the other little bits and pieces
Divide the tokens section - Split it into tokens and exonumia and have the exonumia section as the dumping ground for anything that is non-numismatic material
Stop any non numismatic material coming in - Reduce what we allow into the site to coins and tokens (that can be used to exchange for goods and services)
I've sent a message to Xavier to alert him to this discussion and to try and get a ruling so we can actually start acting.
Quote: "chomp-master"There is a notable exception of alternative coinage which may be surprising: encapsulated stamps.
I hadn't seen encapsulated stamps...but I have seen coins that have their value altered by having a stamp placed on them. They would also be allowed.
And how did my comment allow bullion?
With this line: "Can this, or was this ever, able to be exchanged for goods and services?"
Bullion has been used by financial markets and traders for eons. It's also been underwriting nations for ages and still does in many cases. If it can underwrite trades and countries, surely it's a currency?
There's even ISO4217 currency codes for them. (X-prefixes)
Bullion is bullion, it's a way of storing precious metals, not used as a form of currency. I'm talking about whether then individual piece can ever be used to trade for goods and services...not the concept of bullion. Try taking a 1 ounce maple down to your local supermarket and using it to buy groceries and you'll see if it can be exchanged for goods and services or not "Honest guv, this is worth $20, take it and give me those 6-packs"
Quote: "neilithic"Bullion is bullion, it's a way of storing precious metals, not used as a form of currency. I'm talking about whether then individual piece can ever be used to trade for goods and services...not the concept of bullion. Try taking a 1 ounce maple down to your local supermarket and using it to buy groceries and you'll see if it can be exchanged for goods and services or not "Honest guv, this is worth $20, take it and give me those 6-packs"
You're nitpicking a bit in my opinion. Try taking a double sovereign into your local for a six pack and you'll probably get the same answer. Plus most coins of numismatic interest are now demonetized in the same way that precious metal now is. A few hundreds years ago loads of coins were simply bullion with some engraving to denote their weight etc.
Difference of opinion I guess. To me bullion is clearly monetary.
Big ole bars of silver.... nah, not really. Sorry Oggy, if we include bullion bars because they were used in commerce we would open the door to cheques, letters of credit, tally sticks, Templar manuscripts, bills of lading and a thousand other items which I'm too lazy to think of. Postage stamps and wrapped candy have been used in place of coins at times and would have a stronger case for inclusion but I don't think even the most ardent Philatelists or fat kids with rotten teeth would want to see them in a coin catalog.
Good thinking though and don't let the rebuttals dull your entusiasm. A fresh pair of eyes might be the ones which make the connection we are looking for.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
That's where the "or ever was able to be exchanged" comes into effect. A double sovereign was official currency and back when it was legal tender, if you took one into a store to pay for your groceries the shop owner would probably offer you his wife and daughters in exchange as well as your groceries. It's the same as all the old merchant tokens, you couldn't use them now because they are not legal tender....but they were in the past.
A modern bullion piece however was never designed to be used for trade, it was designed for people to invest their money in a physical investment they can hold in their sweaty little hands rather than the ethereal nature of company shares.
Quote: "neilithic"That's where the "or ever was able to be exchanged" comes into effect. A double sovereign was official currency and back when it was legal tender, if you took one into a store to pay for your groceries the shop owner would probably offer you his wife and daughters in exchange as well as your groceries. It's the same as all the old merchant tokens, you couldn't use them now because they are not legal tender....but they were in the past.
A modern bullion piece however was never designed to be used for trade, it was designed for people to invest their money in a physical investment they can hold in their sweaty little hands rather than the ethereal nature of company shares.
Modern double sovereigns are still legal tender and official currency. Nobody uses them as such, but they could in theory exchange them for £2. You're right that individuals don't use physical bullion for trade, but that doesn't preclude it from being 'monetary' which COULD be exchanged for services or goods.
And yea I agree Phil. I'd probably go as far as rounds but no further just because that makes most common sort of sense to me.
Quote: "neilithic" if you took one into a store to pay for your groceries the shop owner would probably offer you his wife and daughters in exchange as well as your groceries.
... and where exactly can I buy these interesting coins? I need about 750, that should be enough for now.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
If I had my way, we'd get rid of all NCLT as well, then we could kiss goodbye countries like Nauru, Niue, Palau, etc, ones that produce nothing but NCLT. But I guess that's not going to happen.....but I can dream.
Quote: "neilithic"If I had my way, we'd get rid of all NCLT as well, then we could kiss goodbye countries like Nauru, Niue, Palau, etc, ones that produce nothing but NCLT. But I guess that's not going to happen.....but I can dream.
First thing I'd do is get rid of those damned peter rabbit coins that have been clogging up ebay for weeks!
Mr Neilithic, point of my post was that as long those tourist tokens are separated from the rest of the "real tokens" there should be no reason for anyone to be annoyed by their existence in the catalogue. Now, some might say they are tokens some might say they are not. Do you agree with that?
Token is a misnomer, tokens are able to be used to pay for something, tourist tokens are souvenirs, not tokens and if you're going to allow souvenirs then I demand that you allow my carved wooden swords into the catalogue that I got on my last trip to Fiji.
I would be annoyed by the tourist tokens existence whether they are in the tokens section or separate, because they should never be in the catalogue in the first place. They're only included because there are no official rules for the tokens, someone collects them, and there was nowhere else to put them.
The site boasts that they have 73,000 coins, but does that mean anything if 14,000 have nothing to do with coins or numismatics, but are just there because someone likes the Numista format and wants all their collection in one spot. If you want everything in the one spot then use Colnect where there is a section for all these ridiculous pieces.
I know you understand the difference between fantasy coins and knives.
I still think that there is enough room for all. It is not that telephone tokens will suffer because there is a section for fantasy issues. Everyone can live in peace, especially if those other tokens are separated and nicely organized.
Let us all be reasonable and try to put our egos aside. I call for understanding and acceptance of each other's views. Let us be careful not to push anyone away, especially if we already have all that we need.
Quote: "PajaSkot"I know you understand the difference between fantasy coins and knives.
I know the difference...but do you? Because carved wooden souvenir swords with no monetary exchange value have as much place in a numismatic catalogue as a carved metal souvenir discs that have no monetary exchange value.
I have read through this thread several times now, and one argument I don't understand is the one that the site is "crowded" with rubbish. If you only collect coins from, say, French colonies 1900-1950, surely you are not bothered by the fact that there are other coins in the catalogue? Then why is this a problem? Is it a space issue? Are the servers full?
What really is needed is proper categorising and description of all items in the catalogue. If this cannot be provided, e.g. in the case of blank or unknown tokens, then that item has to go.
And regarding the "trash bin" status of the tokens section that makes it cumbersome and useless, there is already a huge effort underway to categorise tokens by country and type. If we start to massively delete tokens now, this work would have been in vain.
And like I said before in this thread, I think verifyability is a key factor. Provide good information on each item, supported by good sources, and the tokens section will become a great asset to this site.
Coins are coins, this is a numismatic site, there should be only numismatic material. It was supposed to be solely a coin site but a tokens section was added begrudgingly and the intention was that it was solely for tokens.
My approach may seem aggressive but there is a really good reason for that. The servers may not be full now, but last time we tried to have a discussion about this just a couple of years ago, there were just 4,000 tokens and I suggested we do something before it gets out of hand, nothing was done because users like you used basically the same arguments "I collect them, I want them on the site", "I like all my collections to be in the same place, I want them in the site", "It can't hurt to allow them, I want them in the site" now there are 14,000 tokens. What will the site look like in 10 years time if we allow the status quo to continue? There could be well over 100,000 tokens as the membership constantly grows the rate of adding tokens will grow too. The servers may well become full, and if they do fill up I would rather see it filled with decent coins rather than useless elongated pennies and commemorative medals that have absolutely no numismatic value but are put on the site en-mass.
At the time I brought it up a couple of years ago there were 45,000 coins and 4,000 tokens, now there are 60,000 coins and 14,000 tokens, the amount of coins increased by 33% while tokens rose 250% in 10 years time there could well be more tokens on this site than coins, in a site that started out solely as a coin site that is inexcusable, it cheapens the site and I want to make a stand and say NO! That is why I say the site is crowded with trash and that is why I am fighting to stop it.
Well, there are few things we can do to narrow the gap instead of just deleting
1. Add more coins - personally, I could start with Duchy of Courland, Livonian ones and Bohemia.
2. Delete duplicate tokens (I counted and deleted three yesterday)
3. Make better rules what to admit to token catalogue in the future. (as you are suggesting)
4.Bring some tokens on the light again (notgeld?)
IMHO... It would seem to me that you need to take a chill pill, and get a better grasp and understanding of what "Numismatic Material" is and what it includes ... Furthermore, in all reality, this is not a "Numismatic site". If it was truly a Numismatic site, it would also include all forms of Exonumia, Notaphily and Scripophily. It doesn't, so there for it is a selective collectors site ..
What Numista needs are members that care .. Referees that that care ... And Admins that care ....
There may be some items in the catalog that have little or no numismatic value, but someone collects it. The problems with Numista are: poor prior planning for future inclusions; Referees that only want the status of being a referee and either don't know, don't care or are too lazy to do the job correctly; and members that don't care about the completeness of their entries.
If numista was cleaned up and reorganized, you'd never even know there were "TOKENS" in the catalog and you could go happily about your purist way ...
? Format Format Format ? ?
Do not argue with ignorant people .. !! They will drag you down to their level, then pulverize you with experience ...
Quote: "derf"@neilithic ... !!!!
Furthermore, in all reality, this is not a "Numismatic site". If it was truly a Numismatic site, it would also include all forms of Exonumia, Notaphily and Scripophily. It doesn't, so there for it is a selective collectors site ..
You're right. It was started as a coin site, so tokens should not really be there at all, as I said, Xavier himself said that he did not really want to add the tokens section initially and didn't like the fact that it had turned into a dumping ground.
But basically the way this debate is running is I have offered plenty of arguments for why we should be limiting what is listed in the tokens section, but there has not been a single valid argument as to why these extra items should be in the catalogue other than "because I collect it and I want it there"
Quote: "neilithic"
But basically the way this debate is running is I have offered plenty of arguments for why we should be limiting what is listed in the tokens section, but there has not been a single valid argument as to why these extra items should be in the catalogue other than "because I collect it and I want it there"
1. Because they are already there, and deleting 14,000 items would surely piss off a lot of people (okay, this is probably the same as your example)
2. Because the difference between a coin and a token is never going to be universally agreed on (eg. Notgeld, Northern Mariana Islands, Lundy)
3. Because with these 14,000 listings, Numista could become an awesome resource for tokens, if the section is cleaned up - and we are already doing that!
Can we have a section for countries that use coins strictly as ceremonial or for collections, hence they are called tokens, such as Cocos (Keeling) Islands and Northern Mariana Islands.
These should be separated from the tokens that represent businesses and industries, such as transportation tokens and telephone tokens.
Thanks,
John
I have a few hundred "tokens", some are in the catalogue, some aren't. Some of my tokens are "proper" tokens, Israeli telephone tokens, British transport tokens, car park tokens, etc. Basically, a round lump of metal, used to pay for a specific service or product. I also have in my albums, random lumps of metal/plastic that although I have collected, have no purpose being in the catalogue, but may or may not be collectable:
Whilst I have them in my collection, they're not tokens. Although they are collector's coins (maybe not the play money), I don't think they should be listed as tokens.
My view of the whole thing?
Clean up the tokens section, move everything that isn't a token out (but don't delete!)
My opinion of a token may be naive, but it's simple. Was it produced privately to be used for the sole purpose of exchanging for a specific product or service? If the answer is yes, then it's a token.
So from that, I agree with Neilithic's original post, moving Bullion, Tourist Tokens, and Fantasy coins out of the Tokens section.
Should they be allowed in the catalogue? Maybe.
Should they be considered tokens? No.
If you're going to add them, have them in the correct section.
Have a section for Bullion, but plan it properly.
I know that some are going to say that "But I collect X, and I've spent days entering hundreds of records". I appreciate that, but if you started from a blank slate with the catalogue, would you lump your X's with the tokens, or would you want an "X" section?
But where do we stop?
If we add fantasy coins, do we add tourist tokens?
If we add tourist tokens, do we add souvenir medals?
If we add souvenir medals, do we add snow globes? After all, they are collectible.
This isn't Colnect.
TL;DR?
1. Define what a token is.
"Was it produced privately to be used for the sole purpose of exchanging for a specific product or service?"
2. Produce sub-sections for the tokens, I'd say based on the original post.
Telephone/Transport/Car Wash, etc
3. Any item that doesn't fit, move to a temporary section, do not delete.
4. When the token section is complete, revisit the temporary section. Maybe add a Bullion section, or a tourist token section? But that's another discussion.
Edit:
When I say nothing should be deleted, there are exceptions: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces23074.html
There's no information here at all, although it has an NRI of 94, which means someone must own it.
http://www.facebook.com/NumismaticsUK
I'm not an expert in any kind of coins, but I reckon I'm good at research and will do my best to help. Feel free to tell me my identifications/valuations/gradings are wrong. It's the only way I'll learn.
I will repeat this one more time.... tokens are in the mess because of lack of structure and organization. What we maybe need is a fresh start. We should put everything that is in the token section today into something called a trash bin and after we establish structure and categories for token section we can pull them out from the trash bin and place them exactly where they fit. We would put only perfectly added tokens from trash bin into token section. Unless the token has a correct cathegory, a photograph, lettering, shape..... It remains in trash bin.
This will give us
-an astonishing looking, well structured and well organized token section
-an opportunity to deal with things one by one and not with 14000 tokens at once
-nothing will be lost, no one's work would be deleted, no one's emotions would be hurt
-it will motivate people to work harder in order that their token is removed from trash bin
I'm all with Pajaskot, although I don't think ALL tokens need to be moved into the trash bin, since we already established quite a good structure. Only those tokens that lack essential information need to be moved there.
I have already stated that I am fine with having a tokens section for proper tokens (i.e, something that can or could have been used to pay for goods and services) and another section for Exonumia (everything else).....but (there's always a but) I think that the exonumia section should be closed. By all means have it organised into sections and start cataloguing things under these sections, but don't allow anything else to be added to it, any new entries should be declined until it can be decided if these things eventually stay or go.
As for not hurting anyone's feelings, that is impossible. As you can see, I feel very strongly that these things should be removed, so to keep them to not try and hurt the feelings of those that want them there, you're hurting my feelings. It is impossible to keep everyone happy but as the saying goes "you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs"
OK, Kenny pointed me to discussion on the Team Forum. I now know something more, including Xavier's opinion. It is more than a year old, but at least we have some foothold. (My PM to Xavier about his vision about tokens remains read and unanswered.)
In the next few days, I am going to outline several points on how to solve this issue (hopefully once and for all)
But firstly I feel obliged to explain why.
Team was discussing exactly the same issue last year. They did come to some conclusions. (I am not going to publish them now, just hold on) Xavier has also expressed his opinion about token section there. (I am not disclosing that here either - for now)
You see - point is: Last year! And nothing was done exactly since that time. I would not say anything, if discussion was still raging on, but it isn't. As Kenny rightly pointed out to me, there is no one to implement it.
I also posted my proposal (which differs from Neil's only whether to move or delete them) to the Referee's forum - and besides those who posted here (thank you!) I got pretty round 0 answers. I also posted to the Team's forum. God bless (or flying spaghetti monster or anything else) I got 1 answer, which can be summarized by following:
People will try to get everything in (no when I will not let them/with set rules)
Delete them themselves, if you believe it should not be part of the catalogue at their arrival (Thanks, what I have been doing in the past weeks? Or not been doing, because only one administered to delete the coin which at least one member has in his collection is Xavier (I do not blame him, it is a good rule after all))
So, no idea presented, no discussion, do it yourself as you see fit.
Of course, why not.
Here I am.
We are now talking about moving several thousands tokens, creating many new sections and renaming substantial part of token catalogue. Huge it is. That is why I cannot do this alone.
I need your help. This will include starting new thread, getting some standards and managing all the work. Everyone who is willing to help me on this, please tell me. We can do it together.
PS: Neill, I believe your concerns about Exonumia will be erased once the proposals will be published.
I never said I wanted everything deleted right away.
My position from the start has been to set up the rules to formalize what we allow into the catalogue, from there we can start moving backwards and remove anything that does not conform to these guidelines. That is why I suggested that a new exonumia section be closed to not allow any new material
I have already offered my services to help move and sort things once the guidelines have been established.
Year ago, Team took this from different view. In short, main question was how to lighten up the catalogue, and what should NOT be included. This is what they come up with:
These are the items that will be removed from the *Tokens* list:
Pressed pennies
Religious medallions
Contemporary fakes
Modern fake coins
Arcade tokens
Medallions
Play tokens (metal and plastic)
Military orders
We were pretty close to that huh?
But here things get little more complicated.
Neil's rule of thumb, "Can this, or was this ever, able to be exchanged for goods and services?" touches different view - it gives out (pretty awesomly) great dividing line between real "Token" and "Exonumia token".
Now for Xavier's opinion - and I believe this should be taken as it is with minimal questioning.
In short again:
Fantasy issues and private essais should be included. (This serves users as lead if they are in doubt whether their coin is real or just a token)
If anything (telephone or transportation tokens for example) is let in the catalogue it should have clear section. (So we need to cleanup)
Pressed pennies, military orders, commercial tokens/gifts, plastic tokens should not be included at all.
What we should do now with all of this?
We will aplly Neil's rule. With *Tokens* and (future) *Exonumia* on hand, we can clean up.
So anything that was ever able to be exchanged for goods and services will go to Tokens and what was not, will go to Exonumia.
But how to ensure that we will NOT create another bin for everything? Easily - we will take aboveshown categories and will aplly them on *Exonumia*(Will show how exactly in another post) and because I cannot delete coin which are in somebody's collection, we will move them into trash categories, which, as Neil suggested, will be locked and most possibly, face deletion.
In Exonumia section, we would take advantage of the system, which sorts categories alphabetically. There will be no "State/Entity first" sorting, but rather Category first sorting.
Example:
Fantasy issue - Amazonia
Fantasy issue - Patagonia
Fantasy issue - xxxxxx
Fantasy Euro Tokens - Austria
Fantasy Euro Tokens - Belgium
Medals - Germany
Medals - Switzerland
Tourist tokens - Bulgaria
Tourist tokens - USA
(and finally, junk categories starting with * so it will go directly to the bottom)
*To delete* - Military medals
*To delete* - Plastic tokens
All this should ensure that we "wont break to many eggs to make one omelet". - Nobody gets hurt and we can clean it up.
PS: In the last two days, we have 51 new coins and only 1 token. Plus I have turned a pretty few of new ones back to their creators to fix mistakes they made.
Well, when do we start? Who has the authority to set up the new "exonumia" section? In my opinion this needs to be set up as soon as humanly possible so we can begin on this project and it does not become yet another discussion that blossoms but no fruit forms.
One additional point to note, neither the team decision nor Xavier's mentions bullion.
Tokens are "country" like one another. Country I can create. (Will ask for technicalities somebody who already did that though.)
For bullion - Nobody mentioned it for deletion too. I believe it should be in Exonumia. They can be organized succesfully, as Hamletmachine already showed and I have one serious reason for it too - today, many private mints make coins (bullions actually) in the name of (mostly African) countries. (Just look at Somalia). If we deleted them, they would still kept coming. And people would be again and again demanding them to the coin section.
Just give me some break, It is sleep time here. Tommorow, I will set up a new thread, ask for technicalities and gather some people willing to help - and set up some framework, section naming etc. I believe on Monday, or Sunday we could start testing phrase. It waited for years, one day of testing is not going to ruin it.
Forgive my impatience, it's just that it's exciting that something has actually come out of a discussion about tokens rather than a lot of talk and no action which is what has occurred in the past......also it's only mid-day on Friday here so I kind of forget that not everyone is in the same time zone as me.
Asked for technicalities aready. Will establish new thread "**Exonumia** creation" soon (sorry Neil, I need editable first post ) and then I will PM al those who say would be willing to help about it.
I still consider medals (in the noble sense, as listed before) to be listed apart, they're not Exonumia for me.
And there is a last issue to be solved by Xavier only: as he made *Tokens* unable to count in the country numbering, **Exonumia** will have to be removed as well, and he's the only one able to do so.
Administrateur du catalogue, référent de nombreuses nations antiques et de la Lorraine.
Catalogue administrator, numerous Antique nations and Lorraine referee.
I understand your opinion about medals - that is why I thought about type sorting first - medals will get their place and will be listed together. If word comes from above in the future, they will be already sorted and ready to move elsewhere.
I will not be banishing them there, but rather reorganizing them.
Regarding the country numbering, would it really be that bad if Exonumia showed for a small time as one of the countries? I believe this is a technicality which does not build some obstacle to moving/creating itself, or is it?
?? What are “fantasy coins” if not tokens? ... unless you have another category called fantasy coins (if you proposed that sorry I missed it).
The biggest problem here I see here is not that there are too many tokens, but there are too many fantasy coins being listed as “countries.” As far as the silly play money stuff, those shouldn’t be on Numista at all.
P.S. I have some nice Chuck E. Cheese tokens for anyone who wants to swap for coins.
Fantasy coins listed as countries are different problem from this. And there is no consensus on what really is and is not a country. This can be solved by rework of country list, but that is not in my power.
That is why I try to solve this. And not something entirely else.
Fantasy coins are tokens, but we narrowed token definition by Neil's rule.
I know this is an older thread, and hopefully someone will revisit it and possibly give me an answer. My question is, what about casino tokens?
I have several; some are just base metal $1 coins/tokens. But then I have a few that are the .999 fine silver in a brass outer ring. Would those be allowed?
Quote: "silver_smith"I know this is an older thread, and hopefully someone will revisit it and possibly give me an answer. My question is, what about casino tokens?
I have several; some are just base metal $1 coins/tokens. But then I have a few that are the .999 fine silver in a brass outer ring. Would those be allowed?
Casino tokens are allowed; have a look at the Tokens catalogue and you will see examples of casino tokens categories for several countries.
Sapientiae plerumque stultitia est comes.
Si c'est un grand plaisir d'être reconnu par ses amis, c'est peut-être encore plus flatteur d'être reconnu par ses adversaires.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
Interesting thread, it seems like there is a "rule" amongst Tokens and Exonumia referees that they won't validate coin additions without a photo specifically for those sections of the catalogue. I support that, by the way, but I was wondering if this rule existed informally or not.
) and then I will PM al those who say would be willing to help about it. 
